We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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EZfan
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by EZfan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:42 pm

There's a Ryoji Matsuoka No# 80 on the auction in Japan. Price already went up to 130,000 Yen :)
1977 Yamaha GC-30A-Toshio Kato.
1973 Toshihiko Nakade 1200AJ.
1971 Yamaha GC-15D-Toshio Kato.

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:47 pm

...an old hairline crack behind the bridge too which had not been reproted....
- I would definitely have such crack repaired. By a luthier who is experienced and knowledgeable in this kind of work. If it were my guitar I would ask the luthier to use wodden cleats beneath the crack, but I also know the "old school" of dealing with crack in top plates (or bottom plates) with use of some kind of paper.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Antonio Picado, model 62, 2018, Cedar/Madagascar Palosanto. Scale 640 mm. Doble Tapa.

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:49 pm

EZfan wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:42 pm
There's a Ryoji Matsuoka No# 80 on the auction in Japan. Price already went up to 130,000 Yen :)
Yes, it's must likely this thread that raises the prices ;) For better and worse...

/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1989 - Antonio Marin Montero (Bouchet)
2017 - Tobias Braun (Santos Hernández, 1924)

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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James A. Showalter
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by James A. Showalter » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:58 pm

Surely our little bit of wrangling about Japanese classical guitars can't be driving the market.

I did rush out and sign up for Buyee with the dream that I could add a '75 to my collection. Then I came to my senses. Can't have 'em all-

Maximo Diego Pujol - Verde Alma, Thanks Jon. The guitar sounds great.
James
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:54 am

James A. Showalter wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:58 pm
Surely our little bit of wrangling about Japanese classical guitars can't be driving the market.
Well, actually I think so. I've seen a rise in the interest for Japanese classical guitars during the last year and the prices on "The Japanese auction site" getting higher, with more bidders. I think when people google certain builders, they end up here more sooner than later, and realize what a treasure it is. After all, this thread, dare I say: Is the most complete and reliable info on Japanese classical guitars on the whole internet.

Kind regards

/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1989 - Antonio Marin Montero (Bouchet)
2017 - Tobias Braun (Santos Hernández, 1924)

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

rwe
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rwe » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:33 pm

rinneby wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:54 am
I've seen a rise in the interest for Japanese classical guitars during the last year and the prices on "The Japanese auction site" getting higher, with more bidders.
I own a Tama TC15 and a Matsouka M100, both good player's instruments. But I think that the *average* level of prices will rise not for very long time: The old japanese CGs have been the dream for the babyboomer in the 1970s or 1980s. The babyboomer are in their mid-50s until the 60s. The market for these intruments will decline with properity (retirement pensions!) and the rest of the lifespan of their owners. Why should a youngster buy in the cheaper price range a "preowned" japanese CG if he can get a good new Instrument for the same or a better price ? And in the higher price range there are some new luthiers on the market who are very famous.

Nevertheless: Often great instruments.

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EZfan
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by EZfan » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:40 pm

rwe wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:33 pm
rinneby wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:54 am
I've seen a rise in the interest for Japanese classical guitars during the last year and the prices on "The Japanese auction site" getting higher, with more bidders.
I own a Tama TC15 and a Matsouka M100, both good player's instruments. But I think that the *average* level of prices will rise not for very long time: The old japanese CGs have been the dream for the babyboomer in the 1970s or 1980s. The babyboomer are in their mid-50s until the 60s. The market for these intruments will decline with properity (retirement pensions!) and the rest of the lifespan of their owners. Why should a youngster buy in the cheaper price range a "preowned" japanese CG if he can get a good new Instrument for the same or a better price ? And in the higher price range there are some new luthiers on the market who are very famous.

Nevertheless: Often great instruments.
Well, Wood material today doesn't come closed to the quality of wood from the past :oops:
1977 Yamaha GC-30A-Toshio Kato.
1973 Toshihiko Nakade 1200AJ.
1971 Yamaha GC-15D-Toshio Kato.

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:24 pm

rwe wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:33 pm
Why should a youngster buy in the cheaper price range a "preowned" japanese CG if he can get a good new Instrument for the same or a better price ?
One should only buy an instrument that speaks to you, vintage Japanese classical guitar or not. If we can play Spanish guitars from the 19th century, I'm pretty sure we can play Japanese classical guitars for at least 100 more years ;)

/J
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1989 - Antonio Marin Montero (Bouchet)
2017 - Tobias Braun (Santos Hernández, 1924)

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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James A. Showalter
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by James A. Showalter » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:07 am

Wow! The discussions on this thread are amazing.

And yes, this is the definitive place for quickly learning about classical guitars, Japanese or otherwise. I am one year into this site and am a full fledged student of the lessons. It always appears to me that there are a lot more guests logged into a particular thread than members. At this moment there are 11 members and 63 guests on this thread. On my lesson thread there are 4 members and 3 guests, Obviously the members are here for all aspects of classical guitar. I don't know if that is the case for the guests. I would bet the guests are here collecting information and the value associated with particular guitars is probably a driving force in this regard.

For those who have been a members for a few years. Have you noted an increase in the numbers of guests for particular threads over time?
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

rwe
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:02 am

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rwe » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:22 am

EZfan wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:40 pm
Well, Wood material today doesn't come closed to the quality of wood from the past
... hmmm, but luthiers use now other woods and understand more of the physical prinpicles of guitar building and tuning. => cedar tops, double tops, lattice bracing, thermo modified woods, carbon fibre instruments - all interesting new approaches. And we can compare more instrumtens than in former times, so that the knowledge about Instrument building will increase rapidly.

rwe
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:02 am

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rwe » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:25 am

rinneby wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:24 pm
One should only buy an instrument that speaks to you, vintage Japanese classical guitar or not. If we can play Spanish guitars from the 19th century, I'm pretty sure we can play Japanese classical guitars for at least 100 more years ;)
Yes, we can do this (or our grand-children...) But the Japanese instruments of the 1970s will not be so iconic as an old Spanish Instrument. That's what's important for the collector's market.

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:13 am

rwe wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:25 am
rinneby wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:24 pm
One should only buy an instrument that speaks to you, vintage Japanese classical guitar or not. If we can play Spanish guitars from the 19th century, I'm pretty sure we can play Japanese classical guitars for at least 100 more years ;)
Yes, we can do this (or our grand-children...) But the Japanese instruments of the 1970s will not be so iconic as an old Spanish Instrument. That's what's important for the collector's market.
No, but that is not the point here. The thing with Japanese classical guitars is that they are affordable to common people, while (if you know what to look for) being as good or even better than most new factory guitars, to a fraction of the cost.

Sure we have modern workshops like Picado, Juan Hernandez, Amalio Burguet and Camps, just to name a few - that surely are great value of their time. But the woods used for these builds, can simply not compete with the better Japanese guitars from the 60s, 70s or even 80s. With that said, they can just as good, or even better, again - if you know what to look for.

/Jon
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1989 - Antonio Marin Montero (Bouchet)
2017 - Tobias Braun (Santos Hernández, 1924)

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

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Jacek A. Rochacki
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:25 am

@jon,
I am curious why you see Picado as "modern workshop". Perhaps "contemporary" would be better word. In my understanding of classical guitar the modern guitars are like these of an Australian school - lattice bracing, double tops, use of nomex, and other modern materials. But guitars build after traditional fan bracing patterns, of traditionaly used woods, without use of modern/artificial materials are not modern for me even they are made a week ago. Contemporary - yes. Modern - no.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Antonio Picado, model 62, 2018, Cedar/Madagascar Palosanto. Scale 640 mm. Doble Tapa.

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rinneby
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Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by rinneby » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:27 pm

Jacek A. Rochacki wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:25 am
@jon,
I am curious why you see Picado as "modern workshop". Perhaps "contemporary" would be better word. In my understanding of classical guitar the modern guitars are like these of an Australian school - lattice bracing, double tops, use of nomex, and other modern materials. But guitars build after traditional fan bracing patterns, of traditionaly used woods, without use of modern/artificial materials are not modern for me even they are made a week ago. Contemporary - yes. Modern - no.
My bad. With modern I simply meant "now active" - But traditional small scale workshop would probably be the more correct term :)
1964 - Masaru Kono No.7
1989 - Antonio Marin Montero (Bouchet)
2017 - Tobias Braun (Santos Hernández, 1924)

Feel free to ask me anything about Japanese classical guitars.

User avatar
Jacek A. Rochacki
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Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:44 pm
Location: Bydgoszcz, Poland, Europe.

Re: We who love Japanese classical guitars - Delcamp

Post by Jacek A. Rochacki » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:36 pm

- thank you for understanding, Jon. When I think: modern or not I rather refer in my thinking to materials used and to type of construction. In this sense several contemporarily active workshops are offering traditional guitars albeit they are just made. The same refers to individual luthiers.
Antonio Picado, model 60, 2015, Cedar/IRW. Scale 640 mm.
Antonio Picado, model 62, 2018, Cedar/Madagascar Palosanto. Scale 640 mm. Doble Tapa.

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