Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:45 pm

Well fortunately Kenny likes it (whatever it is ) and he may produce it or them . Then you pays your money and you takes your choice .
Sorry TT has so cruelly misled you .

Rasputin
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Rasputin » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:05 am

amezcua wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:45 pm
Sorry TT has so cruelly misled you .
:?

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:23 am

One thing I have realised about these temperaments is how each person can work out their own personal formula . Bach played Harpsichords and the quieter tones would move a temperament creator to prefer certain ( calmer ) frequency mixtures . A steel string guitarist would be trying to emphasise some (deliberately strident ) power chords that always impress the listeners. That difference is made possible by slightly altering the way the Comma is split between notes . I expect you could refine that with a computer . The Bach squiggles are a basic approach to the whole problem and obviously not a list of fractions or frequencies . It`s almost as clever as the design of a Concorde aircraft .

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:38 pm

Now I can see where the confusion about TT has arisen . There are a number of TT sites and they tell us different bits of the story on each one. The one I have just read describes 3 different layouts for the frets . The first is a more accurate version of our normal straight fret system . This temperament has mild ripples in the frets but no key colours . Just accurate ET frequencies .
Thidell Mk1 is a Well Temperament suitable for average , normal guitar playing and focusses on the most popular guitar keys . This gets the frets more wiggly and has key colours .
The Wohl Temperierte is another Well Temperament suitable for Jazz in any exotic key .
So Three possible choices for the discerning guitarista . And we Still don`t know which one Kenny uses .

Rasputin
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Rasputin » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:01 am

Well, I wouldn't say Kenny's one has mild ripples - do you have a link for the page you are talking about?

Putting everything together, including what Trevor said about compensation, it sounds as though the wiggles you get for ET are so slight that they aren't really an improvement over nut and saddle compensation, meaning that the only time wiggly frets are of any use is when you want a different temperament.

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bacsidoan
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by bacsidoan » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:34 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:01 am
Well, I wouldn't say Kenny's one has mild ripples - do you have a link for the page you are talking about?

Putting everything together, including what Trevor said about compensation, it sounds as though the wiggles you get for ET are so slight that they aren't really an improvement over nut and saddle compensation, meaning that the only time wiggly frets are of any use is when you want a different temperament.
I fully agree with you. It's hard to beat a well executed nut and saddle compensation when it comes to equal temperament. I'm still curious enough to eventually obtain a guitar with a TT fretboard for Thidell temperament since I only play for myself and am not good enough to play music in exotic keys.

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Trevor Gore » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:49 am

Doan, Just as a matter of interest, (and if you have the time), could you write down the ten classical pieces you play most often (20, if you care to) and then please let us know just the keys they were written in? Likewise, anyone else who has the inclination. If you have transposed pieces or re-tuned the guitar (or used a capo), please advise from which key to which key. I would be interested to see what "guitar keys" really means for classical musicians. For rock musicians, check this out.

Thanks in anticipation.
Trevor Gore: Classical Guitar Design and Build

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:55 pm

www.guyguitars.com/truetemperament.eng/ ... htemp.html.
This code above gave a 404 error just now so just try TT guitars or Guy guitars with headline "Which Temperament should I choose ?". The part where it says ( eng/tt_whichtemp.......etc has been altered)
Three pictures. First one with mild ripples. Not the one in Kenny`s photo. See what that page tells you .
There was a very abusive article about Buzz Feiten`s nut compensation system and I thought it was a shocking article against him. The nut compensation had a very positive effect on guitars . I resented the way he was so insulting about Feiten .Trying that led me onto the Temperament pages .
I think this should put it to bed . Permanently .

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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Rasputin » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:00 pm

Yes, Kenny's one is clearly not the ET one.

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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Rasputin » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:30 pm

Trevor Gore wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:49 am
Doan, Just as a matter of interest, (and if you have the time), could you write down the ten classical pieces you play most often (20, if you care to) and then please let us know just the keys they were written in? Likewise, anyone else who has the inclination.
In a similar spirit I went through a book of Tarrega pieces and the ABRSM edition of the Bach Cello Suites to see what keys were used. I ignored relative major / minor distinctions and only counted a given key signature once per piece. The results were:

5 sharps - 1
4 sharps - 4
3 sharps - 7
2 sharps - 7
1 sharp - 19
no sharps/flats - 18
1 flat - 1
2 flats - 2
3 flats - 1

On the one hand there are far fewer pieces in flat keys than in sharp ones, but on the other there are a lot with no sharps and flats, so they would have to be in the sweet spot of any tweaked system of intonation. If we say that we need G major and 3 keys on either side, that is 7 out of 12, or strictly 7 out of 17, which does suggest that we might want to make a different compromise than would be appropriate for keyboard instruments.
For rock musicians, check this out.
I'm sure the difference here is partly one of genre, but I think it also has to do with instrumentation . A rock band will have a bassist, which makes the voicing used by the guitarist - and especially whether there is an open string available for a bass note - less important. Similarly, it could be that there is a different range for ensemble music featuring the CG than for solo CG music.

The problem of temperament gets blamed on the comma, but it really arises because we call different notes by the same name and expect them to have the same pitch when they are not supposed to. If you move to just temperament then you discard the fiction that F# and Gb are the same note, albeit at the cost of having to choose between them... but there is still the difference between F# the third of D major and F# the fifth of B minor. They aren't really the same note either. There are a couple of points here, I think - first of all, not only can we tolerate small discrepancies in pitch, but the structure of music assumes that we can and will - which means that we must, if we are going to appreciate it. D major can quite happily move to B minor with the F# sustained, for example, and if this kind of move offended the ear, great swathes of music would be unlistenable. Secondly, JT itself is not ideal even in its home key, so it may not be the best starting point for an intonation optimised for the limited range of keys used in solo CG music. Rasputin I would involve weighting the importance of the different notes that go by the the same name, then using the weighted average to determine the pitch assigned to that note name.

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Trevor Gore
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Trevor Gore » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:23 am

Rasputin wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:30 pm
In a similar spirit I went through a book of Tarrega pieces and the ABRSM edition of the Bach Cello Suites to see what keys were used. I ignored relative major / minor distinctions and only counted a given key signature once per piece. The results were:

5 sharps - 1
4 sharps - 4
3 sharps - 7
2 sharps - 7
1 sharp - 19
no sharps/flats - 18
1 flat - 1
2 flats - 2
3 flats - 1
Thanks for taking the time, Rasputin. That confirms what I guess many of us intrinsically knew: a significant proportion of pieces are written in the open-chord keys of C, G, D, A (and E) or the CAGED chords using recent nomenclature. One of the pet peeves of guitar players is that they find it really difficult to get all the open chords to sound "in tune" at the same time (or in tune enough). Getting a guitar to play accurate equal temperament seems to satisfy most players in that regard, though, and the rest seem to be seeking Just in all keys, which ain't going to happen if only using a single fretboard, with or without wiggly frets. I'll run another optimisation exercise like I did before (seeing how close I can get the CAGED keys to JT) and see what pops out.
Trevor Gore: Classical Guitar Design and Build

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Or look at it another way . the Comma is a blessing in disguise if you allow this quirk of nature to give you the gift of Key Colours . Strange how persistent is the reluctance to show any curiosity about key colours. The easiest and commonest excuse is to exagerate the "problem" of wiggly frets . 4 year old children will get upset if Daddy wants to unbolt the training wheels from the bicycle .

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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Rasputin » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:02 pm

Key colours aren't really due to the comma either - they are due to ignoring the comma by treating sharps and flats as enharmonic. As far as they are due to different interval sizes, they are not so much a quirk of nature as a result of our limited dexterity. We couldn't realistically play a piano with separate keys for sharps and flats, or a guitar with split frets.

I would be interested to know whether string players aimed to reproduce the key colours of fixed pitch instruments back the days before ET was ubiquitous.

If you use a tuning system with strong key colours - whatever you conceive them to be - on an instrument with a fairly limited range of keys, you will soon come across a piece that can only realistically be played in a certain key, but which doesn't suit the colour of that key. This wouldn't be a problem in keyboard music, because the piece could just be transposed, but the guitar is a different story.

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:00 pm

I can tell you are in some kind of denial about this whole subject . You will need to take a trip back on a time machine and try to convince Bach he was completely wrong . No wonder the musical world has shunned Bach`s ideas about Well Temperaments and turned it`s back on him . Was he right or was he wrong? Well ,millions all round the world cannot be all wrong so Bach obviously knew nothing and was wasting his time . QED.

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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Rasputin » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:53 pm

I am quite interested in different temperaments and key colours, especially as they relate to the guitar - I'm also interested in where music really comes from, which is quite closely connected to how it should be tuned. I would have thought that would have been pretty clear by now. The points of disagreement are that you seem to think the best temperament for keyboard music is also the best for guitar music, whereas I am not sure that follows, and that you don't seem to be allowing any room for personal taste, whereas I think that's quite important.

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