Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Trevor Gore
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Trevor Gore » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:25 am

Trevor Gore wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:23 am
I'll run another optimisation exercise like I did before (seeing how close I can get the CAGED keys to JT) and see what pops out.
As promised:

CAGED Keys.jpg

The process was as per the previous optimisation exercise but this time nailing down the frequency of the C note (130.37Hz, which corresponds to C in ET based on A 110Hz). I've also shown ET, which doesn't look too far out of place, i.e. ET is not that much farther out of tune (compared to Just) than some of the other keys. All the thirds are closer to JT than the ET third, but three out of five of the fifths are more in error. There will be key colours, but less extreme than ET compared to JT. Whether this approach would sound sufficiently better than ET to be worth the effort (given that other keys will sound much more out of tune) is open to conjecture. It would need a wiggly fret implementation.
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Rasputin
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Rasputin » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:29 am

Trevor Gore wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:23 am
I've also shown ET, which doesn't look too far out of place, i.e. ET is not that much farther out of tune (compared to Just) than some of the other keys. All the thirds are closer to JT than the ET third, but three out of five of the fifths are more in error. There will be key colours, but less extreme than ET compared to JT. Whether this approach would sound sufficiently better than ET to be worth the effort (given that other keys will sound much more out of tune) is open to conjecture. It would need a wiggly fret implementation.
I've now found a VSTi which will / claims to enable you to explore different tuning systems, so as and when I get the time I am aiming to post mp3s of a guitar piece for comparison. They will inevitably sound like MIDI - because they will be - but will still tell us something. I will include one of the keys in your CAGED system, probably one on the edge of the range given that it is only 5 keys.

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:26 pm

One of the earliest TT sites I ever saw they analysed the most usable temperaments . The best known ones were mentioned ( I won`t say which ) and each one had a score of most in tune keys ( in their opinion ). That pushed me in the direction of most usable temp .I have almost completed the wiggly fret job I was doing. A couple of top end frets need levelling .It was the third attempt as various technical , physical handling , techniques needed to be sorted out . How to mark accurate positions , wiggly wire bending , removing strings to leave a clear space . Just generally practicing the way to do it . The second attempt had almost 50 % unacceptable accuracy . Third attempt has only three notes slightly adrift .Max about 5 cents off on those .Overall it`s a 98% success and it sounds fantastic . The chords are amazingly resonant . It`s not an expensive guitar either . So you can look forward to whatever you choose in the future . You will enjoy it . The frets were in different unfamiliar positions and I forgot to think about that .Not a problem at all . I was just liking the sounds .

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bacsidoan
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by bacsidoan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:28 pm

amezcua wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:26 pm
One of the earliest TT sites I ever saw they analysed the most usable temperaments . The best known ones were mentioned ( I won`t say which ) and each one had a score of most in tune keys ( in their opinion ). That pushed me in the direction of most usable temp .I have almost completed the wiggly fret job I was doing. A couple of top end frets need levelling .It was the third attempt as various technical , physical handling , techniques needed to be sorted out . How to mark accurate positions , wiggly wire bending , removing strings to leave a clear space . Just generally practicing the way to do it . The second attempt had almost 50 % unacceptable accuracy . Third attempt has only three notes slightly adrift .Max about 5 cents off on those .Overall it`s a 98% success and it sounds fantastic . The chords are amazingly resonant . It`s not an expensive guitar either . So you can look forward to whatever you choose in the future . You will enjoy it . The frets were in different unfamiliar positions and I forgot to think about that .Not a problem at all . I was just liking the sounds .
Nice! Pics and sound or it didn't happen :wink:

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:13 pm

What didn`t happen???

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:08 pm

Ok try this one for size . www.guyguitars.com/eng/handbook/Tuning/temperament.html
If the code does not work it`s title is ; Tuning and Temperament A (very) abbreviated history of tuning theory
550 BCE---2006CE by Paul Guy
Anders Thidell is a friend of Paul Guy . That part of the subject is covered in yet another site. There are more sites on this than you`ve had hot dinners. But the main site above has to be pure gold to get a quick overview of tuning through history .

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:25 pm

Until yesterday I had never heard of Caged Tuning . It`s a strange hybrid that looks as if it`s all in the key of C. Why not just have key signatures ? Music without key signatures will get clogged up with sharps and flats.
Strange to think that Julian Bream had a difficult time to overcome resistance from ( eg ) Sir Malcolm Sargent who looked down on guitars. But then Bream looked down on electric guitars. And now solid body steel guitar player Anders Thidell has produced the most important development for guitars in history .

SteveL123
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by SteveL123 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:29 pm

amezcua wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:13 pm
What didn`t happen???
He wants to see pictures of your wiggly frets and a audio sample. So do I.

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:16 pm

Why does he need a picture of wiggly frets? This is a grown up forum .
If you look at steel string guitar sites they are full of derision for wiggly frets . Nevertheless it`s an important step forwards .
bacsidoan and SteveL.123 Your names will also go on the list .

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:47 am

True Temperament is a Swedish invention if you can describe it as an invention . The latest version has Texas in the name to make people think it is an American idea . It`s a marketting move to generate more interest. The eventual result of proper temperaments is almost a happy accident as the original temperament chosen was famous for only working in one key .Now you see the outrage and animosity in the steel guitar forums at an insult to their Rock and Roll hardman image with wiggly frets .They should be grateful the idea landed on their plates but they seem to want to reject it without trying . Paul Guy transformed True Temperament with his historical perspective and knowledge . He linked it up with Bradley Lehman`s piano temperament. Bradley himself seems to be always under attack from the piano community who want to kill off his work on pianos . One of Lehman`s strongest critics seemed to put himself on a higher plane than Lehman but when you look carefully at the illogical arguments used against Lehman and then see who his detractor is (or was ) you realise who this person was. Just a Jazz composer who played Trombone.
I just hope John Williams can get hold of one of these TT guitars and weigh in with some better opinions .

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:07 am

If you were a businessman like Kenny and saw the reactions from the steel /solid body players would that be a fair sample of market research . To me it all looks completely negative. TT has a patent for what they do . That might put a lot of people off the idea of making any guitars like that or maybe just magnetic fretboard replacements . So that would stitch it up so tight we might never see the end product ever again . I think that result would satisfy most players on this sight as well . That`s an impression I get from this forum . Well respected members say words like cacophany if played with other instruments , even though the temperament instruments have never been played by them .I think that is called prejudice. Pre judging .

Dr ToneControl
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by Dr ToneControl » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:40 pm

I have a True temperament neck fitted to an electric guitar
It does everything claimed, many chords that sound awful normally now sound great. e.g. D major on 2nd and 3rd frets
Clearly it cannot work for every scale though

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:29 pm

Thanks for some useful evidence or experience. The historical temperaments pages give plenty of charts and numbers that don`t ring many bells for me . Hearing samples of chords compared between Temp and ET would make more sense . I came from playing violins so my education is sadly lacking as I never named chords that I played. There are plenty of chords in the Bach Sonatas but I just played them to make them sound right. So between My Violin ways and Normal Guitarist ways there is a large gap for me to catch up .
I tried to prompt the internet to get a description of what musical features each Historical Temperament demonstrated . The Thomas Young 1799 temp tries deliberately to make as many notes in the most commonly used keys as near to pure as possible. That is a good practical approach especially for guitarists . I have tuned one guitar in Kirnberger III and I am very pleased with it. My latest work is tuning another guitar to Thomas Young . I might end up with a full set of the best known ones .
I`m refining the process of fitting glued on frets ; this time I am using 1.5mm bronze wire . It`s harder than brass and easier to bend than 2 mm bronze.
So Dr ToneControl do you feel the single notes hit the spot better now? Does a major scale sound the way a singer would sing the notes? To me that was the main reason for changing. I also noticed the chords sounded more vibrant .

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:36 am

These tunings from Bach`s time make more sense now I have been reading a pdf by Johnny Reinhard." Bach and Tuning "2009 .

https://stereosociety.com/wp.content/up ... screen.pdf

The story of Bach`s life and family pulls together the way the Meantone system was partially displaced by Werckmeister`s temperaments . He influenced Bach along with Dietrich Buxtehude who was a brilliant improviser .At one time Bach walked 250 miles to hear Buxtehude`s concerts and stayed on for a month to learn about the Werckmeister Temperaments .That was the turning point. (Buzz feiten mentions Werckmeister in a video .) Meanwhile Kirnberger was also doing a lot of spadework on temperaments . He attended the first performance of the St Matthew Passion and by carefully copying the masterpiece saved it being lost for posterity. He said Bach disliked the crude version of Equal Temperament .
Anyway that pdf shines a light on solid information about unequal temperaments and where Bach fitted into the history of music .

amezcua
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Re: Kenny Hill's new performance intonation "wiggly" fretting

Post by amezcua » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 am

https://mander-organs-forum.Invisionzon ... peraments/
The forum above has one of my very favourite questions by the guest spottedmetal on Feb20 2008
Here it is : "How many of us were brought up on the legend that all keys sound different but found it curious that we couldn`t hear it ? Until starting to play with UT " (UT = Unequal Temperament .)

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