Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
bushweek
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Location: Canberra, Australia

Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by bushweek » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:43 am

My third classical guitar build (5th overall). Torres FE17 inspired shape but a touch wider at the waist, 7 fan braces with an mini-tornavoz (18mm).

Indian/Engelmann with an Australian red cedar neck. I still need to finish it properly (have just put on the first couple of coats of shellac on the body so far and a sealer coat on the neck). I'm trying out aqua-clear wood grain filler for the first time, which I quite like.

I've been getting to know the guitar before final tinkering with the frets and neck (it has a truss rod and a detachable neck (I largely follow the Gore/Gilet assembly method from "the books"). I'm really happy with the sound - my best guitar so far. On the first few days it had a bit of a wolf note on the G# but that seems to have mostly disappeared. The body resonance is somewhere between G and G#.

It has a particularly powerful first string, which might be related to the tornavoz (I don't know.... first time I've built one). The mini-tornavoz stiffens the upper bout a lot and I can still get the bridge clamps in (same height as the transverse braces). I'm keen to use it on my next builds too. It's a loud guitar.
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Last edited by bushweek on Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

bushweek
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Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by bushweek » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:51 am

duplicate

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zupfgeiger
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Location: Wezembeek-Oppem, Belgium

Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by zupfgeiger » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:53 am

Congrats to that beautiful guitar, bushweek. Interesting that you installed a small tornavoz. Tobias Braun in Austria has been building his guitars with such a 18 mm tornavoz for a long time. He told me the main impact of his tornavoz was getting a slightly lower body resonance leading to a stronger bass.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017

vesa
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Location: Sulva, Finland

Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by vesa » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:57 am

Looks really good bw, thanks for sharing.
Do you have any pics of the tornavoz?
Can you tell a little bit more about aqua clear grain filler, pumice+shellac works fine for me when IRW but I' m going to use wenge in my next build and need to figure out how to grain fill it.
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

bushweek
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Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by bushweek » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:15 am

zupfgeiger wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:53 am
Congrats to that beautiful guitar, bushweek. Interesting that you installed a small tornavoz. Tobias Braun in Austria has been building his guitars with such a 18 mm tornavoz for a long time. He told me the main impact of his tornavoz was getting a slightly lower body resonance leading to a stronger bass.

Thanks!

Robbie O'Brien has a very informative 2-part youtube video on the tornavoz which I used to inform this build. The second video is the one where he interviews Antonio Tessarin, who credits Tobias Braun for this style of tornavoz. So you are right and credit must go to Tobias! :) It is a wonderful world of information sharing with such master luthiers sharing tips such as these!

I concur about the strong bass - the 6th string is impressive too. But I was really pleasantly surprised at the power in the 1st string (although I'm only comparing to my previous 2 classical builds - although I have played/owned various nice guitars from some of the masters too). Perhaps what I'm hearing is a stronger fundamental, although the 1st string is certainly enjoys some nice overtones too.

I'm not about to go retrofitting tornavoz (tornavi?) into my '54 Ramirez (which has its own charm...), however I'm pretty excited about the affect of the mini-tornavoz and might go ahead and put them in my previous 2 builds to see what changes.

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petermc61
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Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by petermc61 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:35 am

Nice work Bushweek! An impressive effort.

bushweek
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Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by bushweek » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:53 am

vesa wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:57 am
Looks really good bw, thanks for sharing.
Do you have any pics of the tornavoz?
Can you tell a little bit more about aqua clear grain filler, pumice+shellac works fine for me when IRW but I' m going to use wenge in my next build and need to figure out how to grain fill it.

Thanks for your comment, Vesa. Ok, here's a photo of the bracing, sometime mid-build. It ended up looking cleaner and I took the braces down a bit more, I just can't seem to find a photo of the final soundboard although I'm sure I took one... check out the Robbie O'Brien video on the tornavoz. It illustrates the process nicely.
IMG_6410.jpg

The aqua clear is properly clear and seems pretty easy to put on.

On a previous guitar I used wenge so I'm happy to comment further, FWIW :) (actually, some leftover wenge from that build is the thicker lines in the rosette in this build). As the wenge had scary large pores and was matched to an Australian red cedar soundboard, which also has a major pore issue I went with superglue for pore filling for that one. Gun to my head I'd say the superglue seems to make the grain "pop" a little more and the end result has a touch more depth to it (noting this current build is not yet fully finished). For either method it is important to get all the wood dust out of the pores with an air hose etc as any residual dust will show up under the finish. On my other builds I've used egg white and pumice with mixed success (the egg white being much faster/easier to apply for this novice). The end results were pretty good but I got some sinkback after a few months. The only other tip I have for french polishing is that mineral/baby oil worked better for me than the other oils.
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Last edited by bushweek on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

bushweek
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Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by bushweek » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:00 am

petermc61 wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:35 am
Nice work Bushweek! An impressive effort.
Thanks Peter!

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zupfgeiger
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Location: Wezembeek-Oppem, Belgium

Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by zupfgeiger » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:44 am

bushweek wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:15 am
zupfgeiger wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:53 am
Congrats to that beautiful guitar, bushweek. Interesting that you installed a small tornavoz. Tobias Braun in Austria has been building his guitars with such a 18 mm tornavoz for a long time. He told me the main impact of his tornavoz was getting a slightly lower body resonance leading to a stronger bass.

Thanks!

Robbie O'Brien has a very informative 2-part youtube video on the tornavoz which I used to inform this build. The second video is the one where he interviews Antonio Tessarin, who credits Tobias Braun for this style of tornavoz. So you are right and credit must go to Tobias! :) It is a wonderful world of information sharing with such master luthiers sharing tips such as these!

I concur about the strong bass - the 6th string is impressive too. But I was really pleasantly surprised at the power in the 1st string (although I'm only comparing to my previous 2 classical builds - although I have played/owned various nice guitars from some of the masters too). Perhaps what I'm hearing is a stronger fundamental, although the 1st string is certainly enjoys some nice overtones too.

I'm not about to go retrofitting tornavoz (tornavi?) into my '54 Ramirez (which has its own charm...), however I'm pretty excited about the affect of the mini-tornavoz and might go ahead and put them in my previous 2 builds to see what changes.
Please do report about the outcome of your "retro-fitting" experiments. I am eager to learn more about this mini-tornavoz.
Last edited by zupfgeiger on Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017

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Philipp Lerche
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Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by Philipp Lerche » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:51 am

Congrats !!!!

Nicely done. It's very beautiful and I wish you good luck for the further polishing !
Keep it up !
"If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done."
Bruce Lee

Best regards
Phil

lifewithasong
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Location: Columbia, SC

Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by lifewithasong » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:04 pm

Very beautiful, and quite intriguing!
Esse quam videri

Lodewijk
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Location: Pretoria

Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by Lodewijk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:01 pm

Congratulations on a beautiful instrument. This year I plan to start my first build. I would be very interested to know how adding the tornavoz to your existing builds influences the sound.

I love the detail shots of your guitar.
A guitar is more than just a sound box... it's part of your soul

Manuel Velazquez

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acmost9
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Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by acmost9 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:47 pm

Beauty...I'm totally amazed at the amount of builders here, amateur & or otherwise.

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geoff-bristol
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Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by geoff-bristol » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:04 pm

What's the tornazvos made from. Is it removeable - if so how is it fixed, being attached only on one face ?
Its a nice idea - I'm thinking it could be a wood ring and glued in there ?

A nice guitar - simple lines and nice woods. Not sure I like the triangular button though ?

bushweek
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Location: Canberra, Australia

Re: Classical guitar #3 with mini tornavoz

Post by bushweek » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:25 pm

Thanks all.

Geoff, it is Indian rosewood bent into a circle and glued straight to the soundboard. All the braces around it also hold it in place with some glue. I'm on the fence about the triangle heel cap too. I still need to final sand the neck and make a couple more adjustments. I might further refine that into a sharper triangle or into a small semi circle. Easy with a detachable neck...

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