glue

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Andrew Fryer
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glue

Post by Andrew Fryer » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:52 pm

I'd appreciate a glue thread. (or is there one in the luthiery section?)

This week I've used superglue on a broken clotheshorse and a sheepskin off-cut in a sheepskin hat to cover a cold seam (so suede on nylon stitching).

Both were dismal failures, so I bought some Bostick leather adhesive for the hat, which seems to have worked brilliantly and some Gorilla glue for the clotheshorse, which I haven't tried yet.

And Evostik wood glue was always fabulous.

I've used rabbit-skin glue for priming canvas, but never for any serious glueing.

What are your experiences with different glues?
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David Gutowski
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Re: glue

Post by David Gutowski » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:33 am

I think you can make your own glue. Get a couple of horse hoofs and grind them up add a little water and then boil the mix. Don't forget to stir occasionally. When you notice it thickens strain and pour into squeeze bottle and viola-you've made your own glue. :D
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Andrew Pohlman
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Re: glue

Post by Andrew Pohlman » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:54 pm

There are a few glue threads in the lutherie section.

But for guitars:
- hide glue is the traditional and hard to beat - hard to use due to heated pot
- fish glue - similar to hide, not as strong, easier to use
- aliphatic resin (yellow glue?) - wood workers use it a lot
- elmer's white glue - wimpy but cheap, poor moisture resistance.

I'm sure there are others like CA.
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David Gutowski
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Re: glue

Post by David Gutowski » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:29 am

Wonder what kind of glue people used in the old days. What's CA?
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Scott Phillips
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Re: glue

Post by Scott Phillips » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:32 am

David Gutowski wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:29 am
Wonder what kind of glue people used in the old days. What's CA?
CA is cyano acrylate. I hope that I spelled that correctly. It’s Super Glue.

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Re: glue

Post by simonm » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:40 am

Titebond original is one of the most popular PVA glues among guitar builders. Sometimes these glues are referred to as "yellow glues". This and equivalent glues are probably the single most common wood glues in the guitar world. Used for every task in guitar making.

CA (super glue) comes in a number of varieties and is used a lot by guitar makers for fixing all sorts of things rather than for major components. Some people use it for stabilizing cracks for example. For guitar making the viscosity is very relevant. For some purposes viscous gel is more appropriates, for others a very runny glue which will penetrate the wood is more useful.

Hot animal glues. Used for everything above. The original general purpose carpenters glue. Depending on the animal source it varies a bit in regard to flexibility and open time. So for example rabbit skin glue is more flexible is used in book binding and also for sizing canvas. Fish glue is used for some purposes but I have no experience of it.

Some "boutique" guitar makers today use HHG almost exclusively. A sure way to start and argument here is to claim that either HHG or Titebond is better. :-) Most makers probably have both these on the shelf.

Expoxy. Some makers use these for a few purposes. I hate to smell so I avoid it. Widely used in boat building.

For plastic bindings a completely different type of glue may be used - rather like what you use for fixing bicycle tube punctures. The name escapes me. I will check a tube later if I have one.

CA and epoxy come in lots of variations so the trick with these is finding the right one to do the job. There are also good and bad versions. When you find a reliable brand stick with it. :-) Titebond Original became the de facto standard simply because it was reliable. Various con tries will have their own standards.


p.s. CA is great for sticking your fingers together. How do I know?

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Andrew Fryer
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Re: glue

Post by Andrew Fryer » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:18 am

It's looking like people used hide glue in the old days.
I've never had a problem with it - as long is it's hot to the touch, it stays liquid. It only loses its ability to stick if you boil it. An electric pot might be useful for a pro who is gluing all day long, but if you have some hot water on a stove and just dunk the pot every now and then, it's ok.

But this should probably have gone in the luthier section, or I should have looked there for FAQs in the first place.
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Michael.N.
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Re: glue

Post by Michael.N. » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:36 pm

Historical glues: Hide, bone, rabbit, fish (all collagen). Wheat and rice. Casein. I'm sure there are more dependent on your definition of what a glue is. I'm sure these wilderness expert types will know a few exotic types used for arrow heads etc.

Powdered resin glue (urea formaldehyde) is another of the modern glues. We sometimes refer to it as the boat builders glue because it's waterproof and. . . . . used by boat builders.
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Ryeman
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Re: glue

Post by Ryeman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:57 pm

Michael.N. wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:36 pm
Historical glues: Hide, bone, rabbit, fish (all collagen). Wheat and rice. Casein. I'm sure there are more dependent on your definition of what a glue is. I'm sure these wilderness expert types will know a few exotic types used for arrow heads
OK Michael, I can't resist. I am no wilderness expert type but I believe in the Stone Age feathers were stuck onto arrow shafts with glue made from chewing up bluebell bulbs. I have never tried it. Bluebell bulbs are poisonous, apparently....

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Re: glue

Post by SteveL123 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:03 pm

As I recall, Native Americans boiled pine pitch mixed with ash from a wood fire to glue stone/ obsidian arrow head to the arrow shaft. The ash strengthens as well as darken it and also make it a bit less brittle.

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Michael.N.
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Re: glue

Post by Michael.N. » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:01 pm

What did I tell you, wilderness expert types! Pitch pine I knew of, bluebells not.
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Ryeman
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Re: glue

Post by Ryeman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:11 pm

I should have said Michael, Bluebell bulb juice is only adhesive when it is mixed with saliva. It won't hold a guitar bridge on if you merely crush a bulb in the vice. You have to bite the bulb....

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Re: glue

Post by jebejava » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:21 pm

I've used Knox Gelatin for small glute-ups as written up by Frank Ford.

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geoff-bristol
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Re: glue

Post by geoff-bristol » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:54 pm

Rabbit skin was always used for gesso ( chalk/whiting mixed with glue ) as its said to be more flexible than hide glue or bone glue. Some violin makers used it for those reasons. Any hot glue will make gesso ( it worth making - its good )

When trying glues on materials one has to take into account that the material may be already coated with something ! I tried recently to stick some parchment with titebond - it did not stick at all. Lightly sand the face side and it welds ! Grease on the parchment face from processing or something ?
Similarly - we use these things to protect things from sticking. My favourite at the moment is soft wax - made from about 40mm of old wax candle melted into white spirit ( about 200ml ) Makes a nice soft white wax - ideal for protecting moulds and things from sticking to glue. It looks remarkably like 'Renaissance Wax' - but I'm sure it not the same !!!

Dry soap works well - but soft wax is easier to spread around. Its important at times for things NOT to stick !

James Frieson
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Re: glue

Post by James Frieson » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:07 am

Rabbit skin glue is not good for wood joinery and should be avoided for that use . I had a friend who took a fancy to using it for a spell , and everything he glued with it fell apart . I used it on one project and that project failed because of glue failure .
There is a glue made by an American artisan , restorer and marqueteur , Patrick Edwards . It may be found by searching for Old Brown Glue . It is an animal glue but has a longer working time .

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