Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Steve Ganz
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by Steve Ganz » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:40 am

If you leave the nut and saddle positions as is, you do have to back into the scale length.
Depending upon which scheme you use it could vary.
In general, SL = (D - NSF + SC)
Where SL is scale length for the fret calculations
D is the distance from nut to saddle
NSF is the Nut Set forward
and SC is saddle compensation.
Steve

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petermc61
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by petermc61 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:53 am

Are you potentially happy to not have the 12th fret exactly at the junction of the neck and the body (if the saddle is wrong)!

Good luck by the way - it must sound OK to go to all this effort!

amezcua
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by amezcua » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:39 am

Good idea to use a venetian blind slat That is not affected by humidity. I found the paper tried to ruck up a bit as I left the guitar in a colder room overnight. If you use paper keep the guitar in a warm room or constant humidity till the job is finished .
Comparing CT1 with Evostik the CT1 does not shrink .It also has more tactile "grab if you run your finger across it. This after drying. Evostik pulls down into the gap below the wire and you don`t notice any drag against the fingers . Narrow lines of tape should be placed either side of the fret before any gluing in place .Peel the tape away just after positioning to leave a tidy finish . Evostik can be cleaned with the solvent made by the same firm .. The round wire allows direct contact on the fretboard surface with a useful wedge of glue under the curved surface. A flat bottomed wire would give a more uncertain top surface position .
Tuning the fret position live with a string in place makes measuring unnecessary . You still need to make marks before fitting a fret .

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Michael.N.
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by Michael.N. » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:23 am

If this was a mid priced guitar I would pull the frets and fill with ebony veneer. Cutting the new slots will be perfectly fine even if it is right next to the old slot. Of course the veneer needs to be a good fit and glued in. An expensive guitar would get a new fretboard but then again if the frets were that far out it shouldn't be an expensive guitar in the first place - at least not one that has been made in the last 30 years or so.
Historicalguitars.

SteveL123
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by SteveL123 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:31 pm

Michael.N. wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:23 am
If this was a mid priced guitar I would pull the frets and fill with ebony veneer. Cutting the new slots will be perfectly fine even if it is right next to the old slot. Of course the veneer needs to be a good fit and glued in. An expensive guitar would get a new fretboard but then again if the frets were that far out it shouldn't be an expensive guitar in the first place - at least not one that has been made in the last 30 years or so.
OK Michael.N. you've convinced me to try the ebony veneer! Well, at least on one (or more) frets. I like to experiment and try new things so I'm easy to convince. :mrgreen:

This guitar is 57 years old! A Conde Hermanos Flamenco with no signature. It has a very nice tight grained spruce top, cypress back and sides. Body is small and light (around 1500 grams) with a very nice tone, distinctive from my other guitars. There are multiple cracks on the spruce top (no loose braces afaik... so no buzzing when played). No cracks on back and sides. It appears well built other than the poorly placed frets. Maybe that's why it was unsigned? The action is 3.2/3.3 mm at 12th. The neck is pretty straight with maybe a bit too much relief from 57 years of string tension.

No idea on value. I did not buy it. It was a gift, I have no plans of selling it. It bugs me every time I play it because it's out of tune. If all the frets were in tune, I'd play it more often.

I'd like to try the different ideas suggested here one by one and eventually replace the fret board.

SteveL123
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by SteveL123 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:44 pm

amezcua wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:39 am
Good idea to use a venetian blind slat That is not affected by humidity. I found the paper tried to ruck up a bit as I left the guitar in a colder room overnight. If you use paper keep the guitar in a warm room or constant humidity till the job is finished .
Comparing CT1 with Evostik the CT1 does not shrink .It also has more tactile "grab if you run your finger across it. This after drying. Evostik pulls down into the gap below the wire and you don`t notice any drag against the fingers . Narrow lines of tape should be placed either side of the fret before any gluing in place .Peel the tape away just after positioning to leave a tidy finish . Evostik can be cleaned with the solvent made by the same firm .. The round wire allows direct contact on the fretboard surface with a useful wedge of glue under the curved surface. A flat bottomed wire would give a more uncertain top surface position .
Tuning the fret position live with a string in place makes measuring unnecessary . You still need to make marks before fitting a fret .
Yes, the Venetian blind worked out real well. I was looking around the house for cardboard long enough but didn't have any. I had a 5 ft long level but it was too long and unwieldy plus I didn't want to cut it up. Then I noticed the Venetian blinds on all the windows, had a few extras new in box (they all break eventually).

There is no Evostik sold here. In looking for Evostik I found Bondic and Lazer bond which claims to be the same thing but cheaper. It's a gel that hardens instantly when exposed to light from a (supplied) LED. I assume it's UV?. Have you tried anything like that in your search for adhesives to glue frets? I just ordered 2 of the Lazer bond for $5.95 shipped from Walmart.

SteveL123
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by SteveL123 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:49 am

Found 2 good articles on scale length and intonation

http://www.lmii.com/scale-length-intonation

http://byersguitars.com/intonation/

amezcua
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by amezcua » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:46 pm

I had to look up Evostik to see where they sell in the world. The say Evostik sells "almost everywhere". But not where Steve is . It should say "Everywhere except where Steve lives". That sounds just a little bit special to me . It`s like where I come from " the only county with two separate coastlines ". ( clue ; in the UK ) .
A good point in favour of gluing is , banging them in , is not necessary . Ramsbottom United are in the Evo-Stik football league .Not a lot of people know that .
I don`t recognise the strange accent in the video . Is he from Denmark perhaps ? No he must be Australian .

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Steve Ganz
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by Steve Ganz » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:50 am

It might be fun for us to hear a sound sample as the guitar currently exists.
Steve

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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by SteveL123 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:46 am

Steve Ganz wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:50 am
It might be fun for us to hear a sound sample as the guitar currently exists.
I'll try to do that in the next few days. After that, I should also change strings and do another sound sample. I am suspecting the treble E that's currently on the guitar may be making it worse (more sharp) than it is.

amezcua
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by amezcua » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:41 am

As you approach the bridge the tolerance of wrong fret position is double what it is an octave lower. It may be much more than double. There must be an obscure chart showing the cents change for one millimetre change in fret position .I would expect a ruler measuring method to give something within 20 cents either way . Try to test different positions with something under the strings as it stands now . But do you have a tuner to work with?
Do an accurate test on the treble E before you remove it or it all becomes very unscientific .
Modern style frets were invented about 1920 and before that the slots were much wider. That alternative may save taking off the fretboard .

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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by SteveL123 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:50 pm

Steve Ganz wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:50 am
It might be fun for us to hear a sound sample as the guitar currently exists.
Here you go! It has a sweet voice and easy to play. It's a shame the upper frets are so out of tune. Do you hear it? It really bugs me every time I play it.


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Steve Ganz
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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by Steve Ganz » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:34 pm

Maybe it wasn't that fun.... But thanks for posting that.
Steve

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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by SteveL123 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:52 am

What's your idea of fun? I was trying to show the notes out of tune. Did I accomplish that? Btw, the green markers to the left/ right of the frequency reading is @ +/-12.7 cents.

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Re: Remedy for frets 12 to 19 in wrong place

Post by SteveL123 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:37 am

Michael.N. wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:23 am
If this was a mid priced guitar I would pull the frets and fill with ebony veneer. ...........
Hi Michael,

What kind of glue do you suggest I should use in filling the slot with ebony veneer? Any other tips?

I am going to pull fret 19 first and relocate since it is the most out of tune.

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