my first DT done :)

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
User avatar
Jose Marques
Luthier
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:36 pm

my first DT done :)

Post by Jose Marques » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:04 am

Hello

Please read and give me some advise :)

After I had build more then 40 guitars, about + or - 70% classical, for example in my last 3 years that I'm living in UK I have done almost only Classic guitars with a exception of 2 acoustic, one ukulele and one electric.

I have done almost all my classical by the tradicional ways, fan bracing, very influenced by Romanillos and Houser, I use the Romanillos shape , the project that he sells in is book.

I have done one lattice with good results, but not my sound, maybe in the future I will do other but with some changes :)

In the last year I start to thinking in make one Double Top, after read the info that I had the chance to put my eye on , the info is not very mush but anyway I decided to go and build one to test and see what it works or not for me.

In my idea the sound will be not what I like from tradicional, at least I thought that, but anyway I decided to go forward because I love to test new things (for me ) and see if they are very far or not from the sound of tradicional that I like most.
I decided as well because I was listen and testing one Mathias Daman double top and I was very interested, specially for the amount of volume, that guitar as a turbo ahah.

Lets go and see if I can do something like that, of course he as lot of years of testing and knowledge and my is the 1st one.

Results, I love the sound, this guitar as a endless sustain, beautiful sound , I was with a friend testing the guitar and I'm really happy with the sound colors, what I never thought to like so mush to be honest .

BUT... well one of the reasons that I have decided for a DT was the volume, projection, of the guitar sound and yes is a bit louder then a tradicional but not so mush that the Daman was, well that one that I have listen was one amazing volume...

Now I decided to do more, because I loved the sound, but I need to increase the volume a bit more...

My question is... what I have done wrong or what I must change to have more volume???

I will say what I have done and maybe you can find my mistake

2 layers of best master red cedar

one of Nomex, I bought in madinter the one 560x410x1.5mm
my cedar tops in the lower bout are 0.6mm both with the Nome between what the final measure was 2,7mm

I have used PU gorilla glue , I wished to have the west system epoxy or the system 3 T88 epoxy but is hard to find here in UK, well I didn't :(

in bracing I decided to use the pattern I use for most of my guitars, the Romanillos with my changes , at least in my mind I was using something that I'm most familiar with .

My guitar as double sides, I believe that the Daman as as well, at least is the info I have found .

Well my questions are
can I thin the Nomex to have just a bit less thickness in the top?
the glue, I know some DT builders that use that glue, but was the best choice?
I have used the method to spread the glue is a surface and put the Nomex and then take the Nomex and press to the soundboard, this way I have the minimum glue but enough, and wen I glued the inside top I used this glue as well.

is this madinter Nomex good enough? is not easy to find Nomex sellers, but there are some preparation for the Nomex? I just have cut and glued I have done nothing more with, and I don't know if there are something that I can do more.

Well in the end I love the sound but need for more volume, in the tradicional top there are many things that can be made to have more volume but in the DT I found, in my lack of knowledge, that as not many things that I can change, I'm I wrong? then what can I change? glue? look for other Nomex seller? well what characteristics I must look for nomex? can I thin the Nomex that madinter sells, well maybe just a 0,1mm make the diference in tradicional approach maybe in DT will do some diference as well.

Thoughts?

Thank you all
JM

Image

Image

Image
I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

User avatar
Jose Marques
Luthier
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Jose Marques » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:50 am

I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

Ricardo Meirinhos
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:25 am
Location: Portugal

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Ricardo Meirinhos » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:11 pm

Hi José,

Try a Epoxy glue for the nomex. I think with PU Gorilla Glue the air of nomex is full of glue. The PU glue expands a lot! With epoxy you will get a lighter soundboard.

User avatar
Brian McCombs
Posts: 1556
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:55 pm
Location: Union City, Michigan

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Brian McCombs » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:57 pm

Nice. Very clean work, tidy.

User avatar
Jose Marques
Luthier
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Jose Marques » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:46 pm

thank you

Ricardo, yes I thougth that can be a reason but I have done tests before and adding the glue the way I have done the amount of glue is almost nothing and I was informed, infornutely not by the builder himself, but Wagner is using this PU glue for some time now, that it means that this type of glue can work, if is used by this great master ... maybe I have done other mistakes
I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

vesa
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:52 pm
Location: Sulva, Finland

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by vesa » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:05 am

Hi Jose.
Dammanns peones differ from yours, might have some effect.
Or is it kerfed linings he is using, cut from the top (not from the side) and shaped individually?
Here is a pic from David Shcramm site.
MDammann_003.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

astro64
Posts: 957
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:43 pm
Location: American Southwest

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by astro64 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:04 pm

I don't build guitars, but I just want to point out that there is wide variation in double tops in terms of sound. A Kenny Hill is very different from a Dammann. A John Dick guitar also does not sound like a Dammann to me. One big difference seems to be the same that causes differences in other guitars: where are the main air and top modes? I think you need to go low to reach the Dammann sound. They seem to be overall very light weight instruments. A former luthier told me that the top on a Dammann is designed to cave in quite a bit in front of the bridge, that is how lightly it is built. That was a discussion from a decade ago so not sure if that is still current.

User avatar
Jose Marques
Luthier
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Jose Marques » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:02 pm

thank you for you answers

yes Vesa I saw that already in other pics, before my computer broke down I had some photos of a recovered one, a luthier that copie the soundboard and as done a new one with all details, and the phones are like this ones, I continue to search that pics again, if I remember he as 2 sides, not glued one the "normal" that we touch and see and a inside one with a space between and this big phones as well. my questions is the same measures??? the pics that a talk to are not good enough to have one idea.

Astro64 yes I believe you are wright the guitar that I saw you see the nomex I believe the surface that the nomex is glued is really thin is a risk to do that but maybe I will try that in future...
I must see some changes
I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

User avatar
Jose Marques
Luthier
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Jose Marques » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:17 pm

found it

Image
I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

Ricardo Meirinhos
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:25 am
Location: Portugal

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Ricardo Meirinhos » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:59 am

Did you built your guitar with these kind of double sides?

mqbernardo
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:30 pm

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by mqbernardo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:14 am

That’s one massive rim! Also, no foot. With that amount of gluing area, it doesn’t seem like he’d need peones.

Jeremy Clark (a member here) also does side laminations with a sort of thick kerfed core as the middle layer. That structure seems to be incredibly stiff.

José, congratulations on your first DT.

User avatar
Jose Marques
Luthier
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Jose Marques » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:28 pm

no I didn't have done this way... I need measures :(
the outside but the inside as well

i have seen other pictures and doesn't seams that all Daman guitars have this structure, please see in the Vesa pic you see the peones, they are massive but you can see them by the inside, and in this pic I believe he doesn't use , other, peones, or not so big ones because if he uses then the guitar as a very small interior.
I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

User avatar
Stuart Christie
Luthier
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:28 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Stuart Christie » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:05 pm

Hi Jose,
Great work. A few years ago David Russell came to play for us here in Southampton , and his Damann guitar was very dished between bridge and sound hole, with a hump behind, due to string tension. Talking to him afterwards, he thought the dishing was integral to the sound of the guitar, and that his new Damann improved as the dish developed. This must mean that the contsruction is very light. I didn’t get to examine it though, nor have I seen any other Damann close up.
Good luck with the next version. I’d be interested to hear how you get on.
Stuart

User avatar
Jose Marques
Luthier
Posts: 271
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:36 pm

Re: my first DT done :)

Post by Jose Marques » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:31 pm

Thank you Stuart

I belive that is correct the guitar that i saw as the same problem and the nomex apear in the soundboard i believe that the outer layer as no more then a few mm... the "normal" measure that i read about was 0,6mm but that one for shure was less then that!

To be honest i impressed about the sound, is very rich, color but i look for more volume!

Not decided yet but maybe i will do some changes in this one... let see
I'm a Luthier living in Bury st Edmunds UK

Return to “Luthiers”