Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Michael.N.
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:00 pm

You don't need a really long strap, just tie string and use it as an extension to go to the head of the guitar. It's the section that goes across the shoulder and the seated section that needs to be fairly wide.
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larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:30 pm

Michael.N. wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:00 pm
You don't need a really long strap, just tie string and use it as an extension to go to the head of the guitar. It's the section that goes across the shoulder and the seated section that needs to be fairly wide.
How wide is fairly wide? :-) The straps I’m getting are two inches wide. I figured I could wrap the the strap around my left leg once, that should it from sliding out. Of course, the suction cup is the main concern. It is rated to 22lbs.

Who makes a high quality button that can be screwed onto the bottom of the guitar? I suppose a center hole will always have to be drilled.

My luthier said that whoever installs the button has to be careful to use a slightly smaller bit than the screw and use wax when screwing into the African Blackwood and ebony. I’m hoping not to have to have a large hole drilled in the bottom, I’d hate to have the guitar cracked.
Last edited by larryguitar on Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SteveL123
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by SteveL123 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:07 pm

larryguitar wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:32 am
(......................)

There is some interesting discussion of the use of a lap strap at the bottom of this page: http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/meth ... olding.htm

that says that the strap should be passed over the lap and around the left leg to raise the neck of the guitar higher.

(...............)
Can you figure out how this lap strap is routed? Too bad his clothing and strap are the same color and the pics are of poor quality, which makes it hard to tell.

larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:14 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:07 pm
larryguitar wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:32 am
(......................)

There is some interesting discussion of the use of a lap strap at the bottom of this page: http://www.guitarandluteissues.com/meth ... olding.htm

that says that the strap should be passed over the lap and around the left leg to raise the neck of the guitar higher.

(...............)
Can you figure out how this lap strap is routed? Too bad his clothing and strap are the same color and the pics are of poor quality, which makes it hard to tell.
I agree, it is hard to figure out the routing, I believe he has a heavy leather strap attached to a button on the lower bout, drawn across and on top of his legs, and then over the left one, and under so he is sitting on it.

SteveL123
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by SteveL123 » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:23 pm

larryguitar wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:30 pm
Michael.N. wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:00 pm
You don't need a really long strap, just tie string and use it as an extension to go to the head of the guitar. It's the section that goes across the shoulder and the seated section that needs to be fairly wide.
How wide is fairly wide? :-) The straps I’m getting are two inches wide. I figured I could wrap the the strap around my left leg once, that should it from sliding out. Of course, the suction cup is the main concern. It is rated to 22lbs.

Who makes a high quality button that can be screwed onto the bottom of the guitar?

My luthier said that whoever installs the button has to be careful to use a slightly smaller bit than the screw and use wax when screwing into the African Blackwood and ebony. I’m hoping not to have to have a large hole drilled in the bottom, I’d hate to have the guitar cracked.
I would not choose a suction cup to hang 12 lbs from. To keep the guitar from sliding, OK.
If any danger of dropping the guitar= NOT OK.

I'd suggest metal strap buttons (for material consistency) over bone, horn, wood. Metal buttons are 2 for $0.99 e - b a y shipped from China or $5.00 from Stewmac, probably same made in China Quality. I don't think there is anything to worry about in quality to handle 12 lbs.

soltirefa
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by soltirefa » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm

Have you tried contacting the guy in this video to discuss this issue? It doesn't appear he uses any tripodium or strap.


MessyTendon
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by MessyTendon » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:48 pm

For what it's worth just put a traditional strap button on and be done with it. You can tie the strap at the headstock...It will be just fine. Is there enough meat on the heel to put a second strap button? That would save you the hassle of having to deal with a tied strap to the headstock.

I just think you will be relieved to know a strap can provide great support, not only that you can get all cool with designs. Quite honestly the best thing to do might be to get a really cheap guitar and experiment as in First Act brand with strap button positions before you commit to adding it to your premium guitar.

Don't use suction cups...please...Go all in or don't use a strap at all.

Another thing to consider is that you could use the strap as well as a simple cushion. It sounds like your primary concern is the weight on your legs. A strap with a small cushion should take care of that.

Straps are awesome...Here's a decent article...and I know pretty rudimentary but should give you some better ideas.It's your guitar, you like it, make it work for you...No need to get fanatical about a permanent add on especially if it's a permanent solution.

https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_R ... utton.html

larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:04 pm

soltirefa wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm
Have you tried contacting the guy in this video to discuss this issue? It doesn't appear he uses any tripodium or strap.

I have been meaning to write to Peter. In one video, not this one, he is spread eagled, a posture that is not comfortable for me for any length of time.

In this video, he appears to have his legs crossed. I’m not exactly sure how the guitar is being supported on the right side. I will send him a note.

larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:37 pm

MessyTendon wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:48 pm
For what it's worth just put a traditional strap button on and be done with it. You can tie the strap at the headstock...It will be just fine. Is there enough meat on the heel to put a second strap button? That would save you the hassle of having to deal with a tied strap to the headstock.

I just think you will be relieved to know a strap can provide great support, not only that you can get all cool with designs. Quite honestly the best thing to do might be to get a really cheap guitar and experiment as in First Act brand with strap button positions before you commit to adding it to your premium guitar.

Don't use suction cups...please...Go all in or don't use a strap at all.

Another thing to consider is that you could use the strap as well as a simple cushion. It sounds like your primary concern is the weight on your legs. A strap with a small cushion should take care of that.

Straps are awesome...Here's a decent article...and I know pretty rudimentary but should give you some better ideas.It's your guitar, you like it, make it work for you...No need to get fanatical about a permanent add on especially if it's a permanent solution.

https://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Online_R ... utton.html

The suction cups are an experiment. I will use two suction cups, one for the back strap, and one for the lap strap. Each suction cup is rated to 22lbs. I’ll always be sitting down. I think between those two suction cups and a NeckUp support towards the upper bout, I’ll be able to hold onto the guitar.

I don't have a cheap 900mm scale length guitar that I can use to experiment. ;-) Nobody builds cheap 900mm guitars. As far as I can tell, nobody builds 900mm guitars, haha.

I think I like the idea of the strap going all the way to the headstock, that seems to be the way it is done with large Theorbos.

Trust me, I don’t want to drop it and damage it or my foot. I’ll look into permanent buttons after I figure out that I can play it with straps.

larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:00 pm

This guy seems to be able to make one strap do all of the work. I don't think he is sitting on a lap strap but I'm not sure.


larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:54 am

So, what if I put a couple of Schaller S-Lock buttons on the lower bout? Rock guitarists, with their 12-14 pound solid bodies, get to throw their guitars around and they don’t go flying, surely I can hold onto this thing with a couple of straps while seated!

BellyDoc
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by BellyDoc » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:45 pm

Larry,

I've been following this thread with some interest, and I saw earlier when you posted about acquiring this beautiful instrument. Congratulations!

While sitting here at my desk yesterday, awaiting OR time, I had some thoughts and did some drawings that, if there's interest, I'll scan and post. I have a couple of questions first.

1) If you could magically make this instrument as light as you wanted while respecting it's physical size, what would your PREFERRED playing posture be? Would you want to have the sound hole centered on your abdomen or chest, or to one side? Would you want the lower bout to sit between your thighs or to the right? Would your preference be to have footstool type posture with the left thigh elevated/supporting the upper bout directly, or guitar support posture with the thighs level and the upper bout separated away above that?

2) Ignoring questions of attachment security/stability, and concentrating more on your thoughts about the finish on your instrument, how do you feel about suction cups? How do you feel about applying protective film to facilitate suction cups?

The reason I ask these questions is because I imagined this as a design puzzle in which the main goal would be to safely and securely grasp the instrument and bear some if not all of it's weight independently, but allow you to variably position it against you, as you saw fit. As an ideal goal, the instrument would be able to move with you as you play, and no permanent modifications to the instrument should be made.

I came up with what I believe is an interesting re-think of the tripodium.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." -Sir Isaac Newton

Armin Hanika 56PF

larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:11 pm

BellyDoc wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:45 pm
Larry,

I've been following this thread with some interest, and I saw earlier when you posted about acquiring this beautiful instrument. Congratulations!

While sitting here at my desk yesterday, awaiting OR time, I had some thoughts and did some drawings that, if there's interest, I'll scan and post. I have a couple of questions first.

1) If you could magically make this instrument as light as you wanted while respecting it's physical size, what would your PREFERRED playing posture be? Would you want to have the sound hole centered on your abdomen or chest, or to one side? Would you want the lower bout to sit between your thighs or to the right? Would your preference be to have footstool type posture with the left thigh elevated/supporting the upper bout directly, or guitar support posture with the thighs level and the upper bout separated away above that?

2) Ignoring questions of attachment security/stability, and concentrating more on your thoughts about the finish on your instrument, how do you feel about suction cups? How do you feel about applying protective film to facilitate suction cups?

The reason I ask these questions is because I imagined this as a design puzzle in which the main goal would be to safely and securely grasp the instrument and bear some if not all of it's weight independently, but allow you to variably position it against you, as you saw fit. As an ideal goal, the instrument would be able to move with you as you play, and no permanent modifications to the instrument should be made.

I came up with what I believe is an interesting re-think of the tripodium.
Well, now I am intrigued! Thanks for thinking about my problem. Let me try to answer your questions.

1. I believe I would want the lower bout to the right. The body of the guitar is so big that is forces my legs apart in a spread eagle position and puts a lot of pressure on my hip joints. So, I don't think I can learn to play it with the lower bout between my legs, although I am still experimenting. I would like my feet flat on the floor, as that is how I am playing my other guitars.

2. I have switched to the GuitarLift support system that uses suction cups on both of my guitars, an Antonio Marin Montero and a Manuel Velazquez. I use the DeOro FiniSHIELD static cling sheets and have been having good luck with the support staying on for long playing sessions and even when my guitar is on a stand.

Before, I tried just the suction cups on the French Polished Marin and they would fall off after a few minutes. It's funny, the inventor of the GuitarLift said the static cling sheets would not work, yet, they do! They peel off and can be put back on without any damage to the finish that I can see.

Do you think I will be able to get my suction cups to stay firmly on the lower bout by using the FiniSHIELD static cling sheets? I bought some $2.50 each suction cups that claim to support 22lbs and have a big wing nut on the top that is supposed to securely fasten them to smooth surfaces, like glass. I haven't received them yet so I don't know how well they work. I intend to screw down the ends of the straps on the lower bout.

I am certainly interested in seeing your re-imagining of the Tripodium. It might be nice to switch between different ways of playing the guitar, with straps or with a stand. Some movement would be ideal, and bearing some of the weight is what I need. If it could feel like a five pound guitar instead of a 12lb guitar, that would be the best of all possible worlds.

I need the guitar support equivalent of the Alter G treadmill, that one lets you set how much you want to weigh when running, LOL.

BellyDoc
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by BellyDoc » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:58 pm

Now I'm between cases... still nowhere near being able to get home.

My concept starts with thinking about those kinds of drafting table lamps that use a parallelogram linkage so that you can move the light around and retain it's orientation. They incorporate a coil spring that pulls upward on the lower link so that upward spring force opposes the weight of the lamp head. A similar technique could be used to partially or completely suspend the weight of the instrument on the end of an arm that cantilevers from a base.

For attaching to the instrument, I envision a curved part that matches the contour of the guitar near the waist including some of the upper and lower bouts on the bottom, and that has lips that wrap around both the soundboard and back. This part would have some resemblance to the Viking design shown above, but would not work with clamping force. The instrument would fit into that contoured part snugly, cradled in felt. There would be 3 or 4 large suction cups hovering in holes, so that when the guitar is placed into the cradle, one then presses on the suction cups to obtain contact, and the resulting spring force holds the instrument in place. The cradle would support the heavy instrument and the suction cups would be just to secure it in place.

The cradle component would attach to the end of the link arm with a ball and socket joint so that there would be a high degree of adjustability. The tightness of the ball joint could be a variable so that it could move with you.

I use a Sageworks, myself. Personally, I would want to feel some weight on my left thigh. I believe that my technique depends on occasionally clamping the body of the instrument with my right forearm against chest pressure especially when I barre with my left hand. I believe there's also some force transmission across the magnet mounts and into friction on my thigh. I think if I had a guitar support that completely floated the instrument in space before me, and my thigh wasn't involved, it would feel weird.

My drawing reflects that as I included an adjustable post that goes down to a thigh pad.

... My guy is on the table. More to come :)
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." -Sir Isaac Newton

Armin Hanika 56PF

larryguitar
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Re: Guitar support for large guitar - Tripodium or other device

Post by larryguitar » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:41 am

BellyDoc wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:58 pm
Now I'm between cases... still nowhere near being able to get home.

My concept starts with thinking about those kinds of drafting table lamps that use a parallelogram linkage so that you can move the light around and retain it's orientation. They incorporate a coil spring that pulls upward on the lower link so that upward spring force opposes the weight of the lamp head. A similar technique could be used to partially or completely suspend the weight of the instrument on the end of an arm that cantilevers from a base.

For attaching to the instrument, I envision a curved part that matches the contour of the guitar near the waist including some of the upper and lower bouts on the bottom, and that has lips that wrap around both the soundboard and back. This part would have some resemblance to the Viking design shown above, but would not work with clamping force. The instrument would fit into that contoured part snugly, cradled in felt. There would be 3 or 4 large suction cups hovering in holes, so that when the guitar is placed into the cradle, one then presses on the suction cups to obtain contact, and the resulting spring force holds the instrument in place. The cradle would support the heavy instrument and the suction cups would be just to secure it in place.

The cradle component would attach to the end of the link arm with a ball and socket joint so that there would be a high degree of adjustability. The tightness of the ball joint could be a variable so that it could move with you.

I use a Sageworks, myself. Personally, I would want to feel some weight on my left thigh. I believe that my technique depends on occasionally clamping the body of the instrument with my right forearm against chest pressure especially when I barre with my left hand. I believe there's also some force transmission across the magnet mounts and into friction on my thigh. I think if I had a guitar support that completely floated the instrument in space before me, and my thigh wasn't involved, it would feel weird.

My drawing reflects that as I included an adjustable post that goes down to a thigh pad.

... My guy is on the table. More to come :)
Ha, don't let us delay your surgery.

I see where you're going with this and I think it is a very clever idea.

Right, there should be no clamping pressure on the guitar, that is important. I can't take the chance that the soundboard might be damaged.

I used to use the Barnett/Sage works support, but my hands are too big to put the magnets in a guitar, and my wife became less and less willing to install the magnets as the guitars went up in value. That, plus I didn't like the times when I slammed the support onto the magnets by accident.

I agree, I think it is important to feel some of the weight of the instrument to maintain a connection with it, it's just that a 12 pound guitar makes its presence felt too strongly. It is also stressful to play it because it seems to me that it would be easy to lose control of such a heavy object.

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