Can't afford an original Torres?

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
Mr.Rain
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by Mr.Rain » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:53 pm

Hi Rob, have you played many 1890-1910 Valencia made guitars (Salvador Ibañez/Andres Marin etc)?they are way affordable compared to some replicas.... and closer to a torres period guitar...

They ones I have on my collection are from a peanut panormo size to 2nd period Torres size. They are all lighter than a nowadays light flamenca,but are all rosewood back and sides(super thin,many of them CSA ).

They have all the sound you expect of an instrument using gut strings (richer in basses,sweet trebles),many big names used them (they had from toy guitars to instruments loaded with mother of pearl decorations ).

I really like the fact that many of them had scales shorter than 650mm,i actually prefer the 630/622mm (i letting go a 640mm Salvador Ibañez as I prefer shorter scale instruments)

Some of my current ladies: https://photos.app.goo.gl/TdMgzgFXhyWcBtGG9 :D

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:58 pm

Nice! None of them have come my way, but I bet they are wonderful to play. That's a good collection. How thick are their necks? These days I like very thin necks, due to some arthritis issues. Modern necks can be very thin, thanks to carbon fibre reinforcements. It might not be authentic, but my left hand appreciates it!

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tateharmann
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by tateharmann » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:05 pm

madrilla wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:21 am

I was going to say the Burguet Andante also but you beat me to it. It was recommended here before and it's probably the cheapest option. Other than that there are Torres models from Juan Hernandez, Martinez, Milestones. I wonder how the Yairi sounds. I found a Yairi Torres on YT but it's a high end one for Sting's guitarist.

Oh yea I remember seeing Sting's custom guitar too - very nice! One of the Yairi Torres with laminated back and sides (can't remember if it was a 5 or 6) sold on a Japanese auction for like $300. Crazy.
"One should always eat muffins quite calmly. It is the only way to eat them."

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tateharmann
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by tateharmann » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:06 pm

Mr.Rain wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:53 pm
Hi Rob, have you played many 1890-1910 Valencia made guitars (Salvador Ibañez/Andres Marin etc)?they are way affordable compared to some replicas.... and closer to a torres period guitar...

They ones I have on my collection are from a peanut panormo size to 2nd period Torres size. They are all lighter than a nowadays light flamenca,but are all rosewood back and sides(super thin,many of them CSA ).

They have all the sound you expect of an instrument using gut strings (richer in basses,sweet trebles),many big names used them (they had from toy guitars to instruments loaded with mother of pearl decorations ).

I really like the fact that many of them had scales shorter than 650mm,i actually prefer the 630/622mm (i letting go a 640mm Salvador Ibañez as I prefer shorter scale instruments)

Some of my current ladies: https://photos.app.goo.gl/TdMgzgFXhyWcBtGG9 :D
That's a great tip - I prefer shorter scale instruments too :) Thanks!
"One should always eat muffins quite calmly. It is the only way to eat them."

Mr.Rain
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:43 pm
Location: Dublin/Alicante

Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by Mr.Rain » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:48 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:58 pm
Nice! None of them have come my way, but I bet they are wonderful to play. That's a good collection. How thick are their necks? These days I like very thin necks, due to some arthritis issues. Modern necks can be very thin, thanks to carbon fibre reinforcements. It might not be authentic, but my left hand appreciates it!
Most necks are way thinner than modern guitars 21-20mm(1st fret neck thickness),always with 50-46mm nuts.
The panormo sized peanuts (both salvador)are 46 in the nut,20 mm and 622 scale.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/D9GbPEZ73pFqzecd6
The big Salvador(is slightly smaller than a modern guitar) is 48 mm,20.5mm,and 640mm (easy to play but i prefer 630mm for stretching,so im selling it:D)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qmm2QazwoSsgMyk96
I also have an Andres Marin(that I am getting restored)not in the picture,that is 630mm,21m,and 50mm(this one is from 1900-191X)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rswNnW99iSDkiMQ37

They are superlight,i have/had replicas of period guitars and nothing comes as close to the originals(weightwise ,some replicas sound is near to exact but they are built sturdier always)

I love thin necks as I have RSI so for me it is a 21mm thickness at the 1st fret and a 630mm for all my made to order guitars.

richtm
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by richtm » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:23 pm

I was also looking for a Torres copy - and kind of sounding guitar although I don't use gut strings and don't have this high requirements and got a FE 19 copy from Philipp Lerche. I am very pleased with it I must say. See also
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=113372&p=1206778&h ... e#p1206778
of an earlier build of Philipp. This is Andreas one ... mine is #9.
There are sometimes Salvador Ibanez guitars for sale in Germany. But to be honest they have a kind of a thin sound and strange playability to me.
Salvador Ibanez guitars usually sell below 2K€, but most of the others are sold quite expensive. So I understand Robs approach to look for a new and affordable one...
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Ernest Köröskenyi 1977 Cedar; Pauline Bernabe Especial 2007 Spruce, 2012 Cedar; Andreas Kirmse 2017 Cedar DT; Philipp Lerche Torres 2018 Spruce

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:26 pm

I also prefer 52mm nuts, and 650 to 664mm string lengths - I am tall, with large hands.

Really, this Camps guitar is wonderful.

Mr.Rain
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by Mr.Rain » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:47 pm

richtm wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:23 pm
I was also looking for a Torres copy - and kind of sounding guitar although I don't use gut strings and don't have this high requirements and got a FE 19 copy from Philipp Lerche. I am very pleased with it I must say. See also
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=113372&p=1206778&h ... e#p1206778
of an earlier build of Philipp. This is Andreas one ... mine is #9.
There are sometimes Salvador Ibanez guitars for sale in Germany. But to be honest they have a kind of a thin sound and strange playability to me.
Salvador Ibanez guitars usually sell below 2K€, but most of the others are sold quite expensive. So I understand Robs approach to look for a new and affordable one...
Bear in mind that some people hate small necks/nuts so (46mm is like playing an acoustic)

Some Salvador are nice,others are rubbish(mahogany backs etc..),you can find that many couldn't deal with 100 years of mistreat(wet places/ temperature changes etc)so you will find odd actions (bad angles and deformed necks).
If they do not played well ,I would say they were not well preserved(have seen plenty of pre 1900 guitars...)

All the Salvador I have had straight necks and very low action without ugly buzzings,really easy to play...

The 3 I still have,sound/play wonderful(rich and deep). Checking the 1910s Salvador Ibañez catalog(when it becomes "e hijos" )you can see they had many different prices,the models had different woods,different rosete types(also different internal constructions,which improves with the price)

On the other hand watchout for the Salvador Ibañez e hijos,they are by no means the same as the the pre 1910s stuff (the weight is bigger,and the sound too) IMHO they became even more a factory product...


BTW I Also have a Torres copy (1864 FE17),sounds bigger than the peanuts,smaller than the big Salvador.

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:27 pm

Regarding polishing nut grooves, I've been given this advice: "Get a bit of string (cotton or whatever). Dampen it and rub some chalk or talcum powder on it. Then rub it back and forwards in the groove to polish it, especially the end of the groove next the fingerboard." Seems straightforward enough, though we lack chalk or talcum powder. There's always something else to buy!

simonm
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by simonm » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:08 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:21 pm
....
My wife bought me a Camps Concierto Negra Amazonia for my 60th birthday - an unbelievable gesture, although it has created for me the problem of how to reciprocate on HER 60th!

....

So, what do you think?
Easy
You buy here a Camps Concierto Blanca !! :-)

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:04 am

There's an idea!

Buster

Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by Buster » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:39 am

I've always liked the sound of flamenco guitars but have never played one, have also been warned off using them for classical due to the lack of sustain, do you find this is an issue?

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:04 am

It depends on your expectations. I'm of the opinion that a Torres guitar and Tárrega's music were made for each other, and my experience with an original Torres (I played it for about half an hour) was insightful, in that there was not a lot of sustain to play with. The sound was beautiful, for sure, but dry and quick to respond to the touch. The Madrid school of Ramirez and others brought in more sustain, and maybe when we heard Tárrega's music for the first time, we heard it through the prism of a Ramirez, or some other instrument with lots of sustain.

My experience with flamenco guitars has reminded me somewhat of that original Torres, though the action on modern flamenco guitars is too low, compared to a Torres. Once the action is raised - and it doesn't take much - you get that combination of warmth and dryness that for me characterises the Torres sound.

Torres guitars are not loud guitars, they were designed for salons rather than concert halls. Using gut and silk strings, and tuning to a slightly lower pitch, has reduced the volume of this flamenco guitar, but that doesn't worry me. Played with high-tension strings and nails, it would be very loud indeed. But with lower-tension strings and no nails, a different sound is heard, one I think is quite beautiful and apt for that great classical guitar period from Tárrega through to Ponce.

Through buying and selling, I'm lucky enough to have played quite a few types of classical guitar, some high-end, some medium-range, some low-end. Suffice to say I'm really in love with this guitar, with this setup.

richtm
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by richtm » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:58 am

The small neck is really something. I have also good size neck and could not play a too thin neck guitar. 640 - 650mm is a must. Also if the guitar is much small I have problems to hold it between the legs and my arm.

Action I find important, because it affects the playability. The somewhat thinner sound to me is more than excused because of the sweeter sound - and I agree with Rob that for instance for Tarrega and Llobet a Torres Sound is most benefitial... :casque:
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Ernest Köröskenyi 1977 Cedar; Pauline Bernabe Especial 2007 Spruce, 2012 Cedar; Andreas Kirmse 2017 Cedar DT; Philipp Lerche Torres 2018 Spruce

RobMacKillop
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Re: Can't afford an original Torres?

Post by RobMacKillop » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:14 am

Most flamencos are a strict 650 length.

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