Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

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catie
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Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by catie » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:47 pm

Hi there everyone,
I haven't posted for a while, however I always go to this site when I’m needing specialized help for my guitar studies.I have gotten mid-way into the DelCamp lessons level 4, and am so glad I found this program of study. Before my discovery of this site, I was crusing book after book lost for direction.
I’m a terrible music theorist, however I always try to make a genuine effort to understand chord progressions, etc when starting a new piece. I just started Op60 No 3 last thursday, and love it! I have watched Scott Morris’s video which was helpful in understanding the study in regards to accenting the melody with “a” finger, and finger preparation/planting.
However, I have not found a theory study on this piece....... progression? unusual chords ? fingering challenges?
Might there be a kind person that could assist me ?

regards and happy hoilday to all,
catie

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:33 pm

Have you gone through and worked out the chords you can understand and highlighted the unusual ones?
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

catie
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Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by catie » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:10 am

Thank you so very much for your attention Stephen.
In my awkward way, her goes....
measure 1 : A6
“”. 2 : Bm/G#
3. E
4. A add9
5. A maj7
6. G maj7. ( killing me )
7. B7 sus4
8. E
this is as far as I play for now since I am having a few barre/stretches that need help.
I don’t know enough to understand a progession.... I just know I like it ! and these days, I don’t play anything I don’t like playing.
thanks again for your help,

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:23 am

catie wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:10 am
Thank you so very much for your attention Stephen.
In my awkward way, her goes....
measure 1 : A6
“”. 2 : Bm/G#
3. E
4. A add9
5. A maj7
6. G maj7. ( killing me )
7. B7 sus4
8. E
this is as far as I play for now since I am having a few barre/stretches that need help.
I don’t know enough to understand a progession.... I just know I like it ! and these days, I don’t play anything I don’t like playing.
thanks again for your help,
Looks like your theory is jolly good, though perhaps more jazz/popular based?

A crucial thing to appreciate in this piece is that pretty much every 2nd beat is an unprepared dissonance*, which resolves on the 3rd beat. If we analyse a piece just thinking of the vertical relations, the snapshot of one moment, we can miss out on the horizontal movement, the voice leading, and this changes how we understand the way the thing works. So that F# can be understood as an A6 harmony, but better as a melodic note which is unrelated to the chord and which falls to the E on beat 3, resolving the clash (its not a strong clash because its a 6th!). The same thing happens throughout except near cadences e.g. bars 7-8.
So the 2nd bar is in fact a chord of E7, first inversion (see the Op60 thread recently on this), and the F# is again a dissonance resolving down to the E - the same notes doing the same thing, over a different harmony. When we see the whole bar we see it is in fact basically E(7), and the superficial impression given by the B-D-F# is misleading, quite interestingly so because this kind of fleeting ambiguity is quite common and part of the fun, esp in more harmonically involved pieces. The 3rd bar is E with the 2nd-3rd beat thing happening again.
So it goes. Bar 6 is not G its a diminished chord, again, basically we ignore the 2nd beat because it doesn't belong. Its always a bother deciding which pitch to use as the name for a dim chord because by definition all 4 are equal (as all are the same interval apart). I would call this A# dim because that's the active ingredient. And its doing an important thing, which you should notice happening again two more times as you go through the piece.
Bar 7 breaks the pattern to the extent that the 2nd beat has to wait until the 4th beat to resolve, (treat the E as a two beat note so its sustains to its resolution) and the following bar completes the cadence and so has to be inactive.


* footnote! an unprepared dissonance is one that is struck without the offending pitch being sounded beforehand in a consonant context. If in A, if we play an A at the top of an A chord of course it fits perfectly consonantly. If we then keep that top A but change the chord below to E, omitting the G#, the A is now a dissonance (a 4th), but it was prepared by the previous sounding, and so the ear accepts the clash more readily... the A then falls to the G#, resolving the dissonance; we can call this process Preparation, Dissonance and Resolution -PDR- and you will notice it almost everywhere because its a very common device in conventional harmony esp in baroque and earlier classical repertoire. Study 3 here is an example where unprepared dissonance is used throughout and its part of it being an extremely harmonically rich and complex piece and of its time, well into the Romantic period (being mid-century).
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

catie
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Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by catie » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:54 pm

Thank you so very much for the help with this study. I have completely changed my mind set. Dissonance and Resolution didn’t enter my mind, as I was only playing it as an apeggio study. How interesting to view and hear it as a horizontal , moving melody with delicate moments of playful resolve. It’s almost like a question and response.
I am having some difficulty with some stretch/barre combinations, and to proceed I will have to create a few finger changes i.e. measure 7 C2, I release the B to play the A and then return back to B when needed. I think it works, and my fingers remember. Looking forward, I see trouble ahead, but I still love the piece and that’s all the motivation I need.
c.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:29 pm

Well its is in fact one of the real gems of the repertoire in its modest way. And certainly, its in fact a study in a melody supported by arpeggios, and there is a dialogue between the treble (beats 2 - 3 mostly) and the bass (beats 4 - 1).

If I may;

[media]https://youtu.be/QPraVwiaoNU[/media]
Last edited by Stephen Kenyon on Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

catie
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:48 pm

Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by catie » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:01 am

Beautifully, beautifully played, Stephen. I have a long way to go with this one, but as you suggested, doing it justice is certainly a must.
I am handicapped in technical ability, but not motivation. I have only started this study one week ago, and I feel I have made some small progress none the less.
Persistence is key.
cheers,
c.

davebones
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Location: Scarborough, Maine

Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by davebones » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:10 am

Lovely interpretation, Stephen. Your thoughtful explanation of the voices in this piece is helpful as well.
Thanks,
dave

johnhall
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Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by johnhall » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:12 pm

Maybe some additional harmonic information here. Don't miss the PDF at the end for download:

http://www.johnhallguitar.com/blog/harm ... y_3_op_60/

John

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sxedio
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Re: Carcassi Op60 N03 etude study

Post by sxedio » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:55 pm

I remember something from Chris Davis on how to do dynamics of this study based on the harmonic content, I can't find it in the forum (maybe it was in a blog?), he is no longer a member and that makes it harder to search for his posts.

Edit: see http://www.classicalguitar.org/2010/02/ ... -dynamics/ though it is about the second study, not the third.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

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