Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

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Crofty
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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Crofty » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:55 pm

Rite toe: I shall do so forthwith.

However, since it's been discussed here a lot, and it does relate to the 1st study, I think it's worth pointing out that words such as staccato are not intended to imply a fixed % of any given note value being implied.

The opening scales and similar ones work nicely with separation but at other times that is not necessarily the case. It's a personal/musical decision and virtually impossible, as well as probably undesirable, for a composer to dictate every small nuance.

Paul

Will start new thread tomorrow.

Crofty
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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Crofty » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:05 am

Going back to Llobet's rh fingering - the original point of this thread - it's interesting to see that, whilst he uses the "a" finger to obviate jumps for the rh fingers, he seems unfussed about i and m having to cross strings in any particular way, whether ascending or descending

Also, I remember Aguado often would have consecutive m fingers written down, when there seemed no logical reason behind a decision to briefly cease alternation.

Paul

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by 2lost2find » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:43 am

Apologies, Rob... I was thinking of it as directly relevant, as Llobet carried the marking over to his edition, to discuss how it ought to be interpreted. Since it's your thread and you disagree I will shut up about it.

Pity he didn't leave us a recording of it...

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by 2lost2find » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:00 am

Crofty wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:05 am


Also, I remember Aguado often would have consecutive m fingers written down, when there seemed no logical reason behind a decision to briefly cease alternation.

Paul
In Aguado's case it almost certainly came down to tone production. Aguado was vastly concerned with it, and was very aware of the fact that each finger sounds a bit different due to placement along the string and angle. When he indicated fingers, he was thinking about how it would sound. That's where the odd double fingerings come from. I doubt that's the case here.

Or it might be. I'm not 100% sold the line means continue alternation. It might, but if I was your average student just glancing at the page I would probably assume it means repeat last finger, and Llobet could scarcely have been unaware of that possibility. So I'm on the fence. It's not hard to play with a single finger, after all. If it DOES mean repeat finger, is uniformity of tone perhaps the reason? Yet another probably unsolvable mystery...

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Wuuthrad » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:32 am

It has to be continuation of alternate fingering, for no other reason than the printing press at that time could print more cheaply lines than letters!

:merci:
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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Wuuthrad » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:37 am

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:29 am
Notice anything odd here?
What I first noticed as odd was the word staccato. I haven't seen this explicitly mentioned before. Only in an editor's notes which I took half heartedly with a few grains of salt.

I didn't think the diagonal line was odd at all, and at first I thought it meant repeating alternate fingering patterns, which produce a familiar staccato effect. Which I often alternate with a bit of legato in this study, just for fun.

I then practiced this study without alternation of fingers as was suggested (surprisingly to me I might add,) and it produces a nice, quicker staccato- a bit more fluid; and this also serves as an interesting variation, one I feel might aid individual finger strength and articulation, if practiced repetetively in this way, using staccato as written.

Again, many thanks for posing this question and entertaining all responses; it is good to see things from a different perspective and widen ones view on how to interpret musical study!
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:45 am

RobMacKillop wrote:It seems impossible to keep this thread on track. Okay, let's forget Llobet. Let's all talk about our understanding of the word staccato. Actually, let's not. If someone is so keen on learning what we all understand by staccato , please start a dedicated thread.
Sorry Rob - of course I understand the thrust of the thread. I put it to you though that other markings than just the fingering directions are equally pertinent to our understanding of these publications as historical documents, being some of the often sparse clues shedding faint illumination on the performance practices of such individuals as Llobet.

If we make interpretive judgements without understanding how language changes over time we are wont to inadvertantly draw a further layer of obfuscation over the matter (as appears to have happened through Jeffrey's stab at it).

Clues as to the meaning of the word are right there in my response to 2handband by the way - I researched this decades ago when physically visiting libraries was our main recourse. I'm buggered if I'm going to spell it out if nobody can be bothered to do what must be a relatively simple job using modern technology.

ON TOPIC:
I have seen those lines before Rob, though I can't for the life of me remember exactly where - for what it's worth, and as I recall, they always indicated continuation of i, m alternation. I'll have a rummage amongst my books - see if I can come up with some examples.

Do you know the date of the Llobet publication?

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by RobMacKillop » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:57 am

Cheers, Mark. A student is at the door, so a quick response: 1914. More later.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:02 pm

Having searched fruitlessly through dozens of books it occurred to me that it might be an editorial shortcut particular to Ricordi - so far ...
... found nothing.

Then it struck me that the Llobet - Tárrega connection might be worth following and ... first hit: Pascual Roch's A Modern Method (School of Tárrega) uses a (dashed) line to indicate continuation of repeated i & m or m & a. Not a definitive example but at least evidence of the concept.

Pujol on the other hand (pointlessly) fingers every single note throughout the first 20 or so exercises in alternation. Thereafter he assumes that you've somehow got the message and simply indicates the initial configuration leaving the rest to common sense.

Soares gives an initial indication followed by "etc."

Time presses and I have to leave it there for now. I'm pretty sure that there are further examples out there - unless - could it be that I am simply remembering my own first and distant meeting with the Llobet/Carcassi?? That would be amusing to some I'm sure ...

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Crofty » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:26 pm

Crofty wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:39 pm
Common sense would suggest that the line he uses indicates "as before" - i.e. imi alternation without the "a" finger thrown in, as in bar one for example.

Paul
I wrote this a few days ago: I'm a big fan of common sense [so long as it's my own of course...]

Paul

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Crofty » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:45 pm

What interests me more with regard to the rh fingering that Carcassi himself might have used/recommended, in this particular study, is whether he would always play p imimi [etc] or p mimim [etc] or vary the two depending on string crossing problems likely to be encountered.

I don't know - but don't think - he would have used Llobet's "a" finger when reaching for the first upper string note.

[Any thoughts on that?]

I used to obsessively use that, in order to minimise string crossing, before deciding that I simply needed to sort of "embrace" the problem and solve it.

Playing continuous mimi or imim alternation seems to require a more flexible right hand to carry the fingers up or down the strings. But once that is developed it means one can play, and sight read, similar passages on a sort of automatic pilot as far as alternation is concerned. Using the occasional "a" finger meant [for me] some pre-planning.

Again, if anyone has any thoughts on the above I'd be interested to read them.

Paul

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MartinCogg
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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by MartinCogg » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:00 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:02 pm
Having searched fruitlessly through dozens of books it occurred to me that it might be an editorial shortcut particular to Ricordi - so far ...
... found nothing.

Then it struck me that the Llobet - Tárrega connection might be worth following and ... first hit: Pascual Roch's A Modern Method (School of Tárrega) uses a (dashed) line to indicate continuation of repeated i & m or m & a. Not a definitive example but at least evidence of the concept.

Pujol on the other hand (pointlessly) fingers every single note throughout the first 20 or so exercises in alternation. Thereafter he assumes that you've somehow got the message and simply indicates the initial configuration leaving the rest to common sense.

Soares gives an initial indication followed by "etc."

Time presses and I have to leave it there for now. I'm pretty sure that there are further examples out there - unless - could it be that I am simply remembering my own first and distant meeting with the Llobet/Carcassi?? That would be amusing to some I'm sure ...
I think this (iii) is the sort of example you're after Mark - (first 2 showing source)
Ricordi i.JPG
Ricordi ii.JPG
Ricordi iii.JPG
as to matter arising... from the Tecla Giuliani op.1 edition
Tecla i.JPG
Tecla ii.JPG
If anyone ask me (obviously MacKillop would not :? ) it's absurd to think there's a suggestion (from either Llobet or Savio)
to play these note sequences with one finger, and likewise I'd agree that Staccato is merely to be taken as non-slurry.
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:13 pm

MartinCogg wrote:I think this (iii) is the sort of example you're after Mark - (first 2 showing source)
Ah - well spotted Martin, and there's the Tárrega connection once more.
The Giuliani raises questions in my mind but I started another thread to relieve the thread drift here.

No idea why Rob wouldn't ask you but I think he's in general agreement in any case.

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by Crofty » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:56 pm

Martin

I'm confused as to what the Giuliani is there for? The rh fingering is the old fashioned two dots for m and one for i.

Am I missing your point?

Paul

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Re: Llobet's Edition of Carcassi Op.60 Studies

Post by erichert » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:24 pm

Crofty wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:56 pm
Martin

I'm confused as to what the Giuliani is there for? The rh fingering is the old fashioned two dots for m and one for i.

Am I missing your point?

Paul
It's there for the textual description of staccato I assume, since the English below is a word for word translation of it.

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