Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Creating a home studio for recording the classical guitar. Equipment, software and recording techniques. Amplification for live performance.
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri May 12, 2017 9:50 pm

ben etow wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 10:39 am
You might want to check Joie's system at the GFA as Gaelle Solal and Boris Gaquere will be using it for their show.
BTW, Thibault Cauvin is also using it.

Here a previous version of the system I used years ago within Locango:
http://locango.snack.ws/media.html
Thanks - I'm sure its a super system. I can't possibly go as far as that kind of gear though!
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Philosopherguy
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by Philosopherguy » Fri May 12, 2017 10:44 pm

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with using hi-fi speakers as a PA. But, it will likely present a number of problems. For one, hi-fi speakers aren't generally as large as PA speakers and are designed to be driven with a fairly clean signal with no distortion (ie. they will burn out easier if you clip them too much.. PA speakers are designed to take abuse). Secondly, Hi-fi speakers are designed to articulate sounds that tend to get "muddy" and clouded over on a set of PA speakers because of the relatively limited dynamic range of the cones and (likely) horns. It is this precision that will cause feedback problems. If you DO get feedback, it is likely going to cause big problems for your speakers because they aren't designed to take that kind of current as they heat up with that kind of constant beating. Speakers cool themselves down due to the changing nature of the music and the lack of constant current. Overdrive a sine wave into a hi-fi speaker and you are likely to burn it out pretty quick with any kind of amp that has any power.

So, I would avoid using them... I don't think they are any less efficient or anything. Good hi-fi speakers will produce just as much sound per watt. But, bounce around too many high range frequencies in a room coming from high frequency tweeters and you are likely going to have problems with any kind of sensitive mic.
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Bill B
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by Bill B » Sat May 13, 2017 1:45 am

I have done what I think you are saying, and it worked fine. I inherited a vintage Gromes amp and have used it with various hi-fi speakers for live performance, both solo and ensemble. But I wasn't looking for a lot of volume, just to reinforce whats there already. as for the cable, you can just buy a speaker cable from one of the big box stores and cut an end off if you need 1/4 to bare wire. Its like typical "electric guitar cable" except it is not shielded, you don't have the ground wrapped around the hot wire. if you can solder, you can just go to the hardware store and buy x feet of monster cable or whatever and solder a plug to one end. its pretty easy.
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ben etow
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by ben etow » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:41 pm

ben etow wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 12:46 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 9:57 am
So the reason for the thought is partly that though I have a nice enough acoustic amp, its never a truly hifi type sound, and more to the point, its only the one box. The scenario I'm thinking if may be useful to have at least two speakers a distance away, partly so other players can hear them. In the past I borrowed another amp and pointed it backwards for the players.
I tried studio speakers, both small and big like 5 years ago and it did not work that well. Too directional and too low gain. I suspect you would get even less gain with hifi speakers...

If you want a truly hifi type sound and omnidirectionality so other players can hear the source (which will be perceived as one with the guitar near to the speaker), I strongly recommend you French luthier Jean-Luc Joie's system. He solved the problem. But you need to use his guitars.
Jean-Luc has posted the following message on FB with two pics. I strongly recommend it as a long time user.

"Omnidirectionnal Wifi ampli , dedicated to our guitars, that we developed with the company " Analog Performance "
José Ferreira , Catherine Struys , Thibault Cauvin , Boris Gaquere ,David Garciarena ,Patrick Lanusse, Patrick Ruby, Pierre Colombo, Christine Lanusse, Jérémy Duran, Jean- Bernard Poublan , Benoit Ducène ......play in concert with it !"
Jean-Luc Joie wi-fi loudspeaker.jpg
Jean-Luc Joie wi-fi loudspeaker 2.jpg
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konstantine
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by konstantine » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:10 am

ben etow wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:41 pm
ben etow wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 12:46 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed May 10, 2017 9:57 am
So the reason for the thought is partly that though I have a nice enough acoustic amp, its never a truly hifi type sound, and more to the point, its only the one box. The scenario I'm thinking if may be useful to have at least two speakers a distance away, partly so other players can hear them. In the past I borrowed another amp and pointed it backwards for the players.
I tried studio speakers, both small and big like 5 years ago and it did not work that well. Too directional and too low gain. I suspect you would get even less gain with hifi speakers...

If you want a truly hifi type sound and omnidirectionality so other players can hear the source (which will be perceived as one with the guitar near to the speaker), I strongly recommend you French luthier Jean-Luc Joie's system. He solved the problem. But you need to use his guitars.
Jean-Luc has posted the following message on FB with two pics. I strongly recommend it as a long time user.

"Omnidirectionnal Wifi ampli , dedicated to our guitars, that we developed with the company " Analog Performance "
José Ferreira , Catherine Struys , Thibault Cauvin , Boris Gaquere ,David Garciarena ,Patrick Lanusse, Patrick Ruby, Pierre Colombo, Christine Lanusse, Jérémy Duran, Jean- Bernard Poublan , Benoit Ducène ......play in concert with it !"
Looks like to be a very good idea but there is almost no info about it, just an interview in French saying how amazing this system is and bla bla. Oh and that it is a system you cannot use your guitar with it, you need to buy the guitar and the wifi amp as it is one system (at least thats what I got with google translator).

Amplifying guitar for concerts, especially in order to be able to play with other, louder instruments (like a grand piano) is always an elusive dream, sometimes in the right venue and/or the right sound-guy it works, sometimes its a painful struggle.

If it is for solo guitar or accompanying a singer, a loud guitar - and if needed a condenser mic - works every time; given that the room is now awful and that the people come to listen to the music.

Konstantine

ben etow
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by ben etow » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:07 pm

Agreed, there's little info, and mostly in French. But I guess you know at least Thibault Cauvin and Boris Gaquere. Besides, it is pretty new. And yes, you need to use a Joie with the amp system but that's why it works so well, as one instrument, really.

No feedback, no cut frequencies, true natural sound... And you can play effortless (plenty of power available you don't even use most of the time) and you hear yourself play the very same way the orchestra or you chamber music colleagues hear you. This is something you can never achieve with any other existing system. You can play at the same level as other instrumentalists and singers. I owned and played many loud guitars, but this is simply another world.

That said, the best way to understand what this is about and the extra opportunities you could get is trying it when you can.
Just an example: I couldn't play with such a professional cellist within Locango and record a CD (GCM project) with only two mikes without this amp system... We had the very same balance in the studio as live...

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singularity
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by singularity » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:01 pm

Stephen- I'm curious. If you have Hifi speakers do you also have a hifi receiver? If so, you could connect your mixer monitor line output to your receiver cd or a tape input (RC cables), connect your speakers to your receiver with speaker cables, select the appropriate input on your receiver and voila. Make sure that Master Mix or Mic input volume knobs are not on 0 or mute. Everything that others before me have said still applies, feedback, impedance matching etc but at least you can try, see what happens.
If you don't have hifi receiver you'll have to make small investment in new gear.

ronjazz
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by ronjazz » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:35 pm

The Bose Compact is the perfect solution. It's $1000, worth every cent. Line array, thus very little directionality, making it self-monitoring, and very hi-fi, but built for live use. It's main drawbacks are no phantom power for condenser mic, and no effects, although there is EQ on the mic channel. Light and easy to set up, and virtually invisible against a dark backdrop, but will fill a good-sized hall with natural sound.
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ben etow
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Re: Using hifi speakers driven from a mixer for live performance

Post by ben etow » Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:56 pm

ben etow wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:07 pm
Agreed, there's little info, and mostly in French. But I guess you know at least Thibault Cauvin and Boris Gaquere. Besides, it is pretty new. And yes, you need to use a Joie with the amp system but that's why it works so well, as one instrument, really.

No feedback, no cut frequencies, true natural sound... And you can play effortless (plenty of power available you don't even use most of the time) and you hear yourself play the very same way the orchestra or you chamber music colleagues hear you. This is something you can never achieve with any other existing system. You can play at the same level as other instrumentalists and singers. I owned and played many loud guitars, but this is simply another world.

That said, the best way to understand what this is about and the extra opportunities you could get is trying it when you can.
Just an example: I couldn't play with such a professional cellist within Locango and record a CD (GCM project) with only two mikes without this amp system... We had the very same balance in the studio as live...
Edenwood recording the way they play live...
Edenwood recording session.jpg
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