Is recording in sections cheating?

Creating a home studio for recording the classical guitar. Equipment, software and recording techniques. Amplification for live performance.
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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri May 15, 2015 11:55 am

In one story in this video Svyatoslav Richter described like he received news that his mother is dying in minutes before his first concert in Vienna, and then he could not play well, and then press and critics wrote "Richter plays terrible"" Richter disappointed" "Richter is not good pianist" etc. - isn't it a good example for the crucial role of recording in a life of music artist - he could freeze the moment of time when he plays something as he want as he see it and understand it, not in the moment of stress and despair, but in the moment of revelation, and then present this version to the world , and not the moment when he is in under pressure, in sickness, with trauma..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nnsCNUlE8
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri May 15, 2015 11:55 am

In one story in this video Svyatoslav Richter described like he received news that his mother is dying in minutes before his first concert in Vienna, and then he could not play well, and then press and critics wrote "Richter plays terrible"" Richter disappointed" "Richter is not good pianist" etc. - isn't it a good example for the crucial role of recording in a life of music artist - he could freeze the moment of time when he plays something as he want as he see it and understand it, not in the moment of stress and despair, but in the moment of revelation, and then present this version to the world , and not the moment when he is in under pressure, in sickness, with trauma..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nnsCNUlE8
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri May 15, 2015 12:00 pm

In one story in this video Svyatoslav Richter described like he received news that his mother is dying in minutes before his first concert in Vienna, and then he could not play well, and then press and critics wrote "Richter plays terrible"" Richter disappointed" "Richter is not good pianist" etc. - isn't it a good example for the crucial role of recording in a life of music artist - he could freeze the moment of time when he plays something as he want as he see it and understand it, not in the moment of stress and despair, but in the moment of revelation, and then present this version to the world , and not the moment when he is in under pressure, in sickness, with trauma..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nnsCNUlE8

by the way ... even he, technically and musically superior of all pianists I ever heard in my life, recorded many takes when he worked in studios... so sound engineer could cut and glue them and make the best possible... and he did not like visual part of performance and wanted that music would sound in darknness, so listeners could concentrate on music only..
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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Filipp
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by Filipp » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:34 am

Sorry, I have not read the whole thread but - Yes, it is cheating.

I know, I know - "but THEY ARE ALL doing it anyway..." as if their ways should be duplicated because they are stars. They can do it live though, in one continues thought.
We just want it perfect, what's wrong with that, right? What's wrong with photo-shopping the models (who are beautiful already anyway)? Why have athletes bother with substance testing (who are already on a high-performing level)? etc. etc.

Couple of years ago, I listened to a CD my friend gave me of some unknown folk guitar player and singer. The CD insert stated that each and all tracks were recorded in a single take, no overdubs, no layers etc. At that moment I figured that If I ever record a CD, and I will, that I will hold myself to a higher standard too.

If "big boys" are doing it and see no problem with that, why not be fully transparent and mention in a CD pamphlet, for example:
Track #4 was splices together from 7 sections taken from 4 takes.
Track #5 was spliced together from 3 section taken from 3 takes on 3 different days. ... and so forth.

I would like to see that type of honesty and transparency from musicians.
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alfonso

Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by alfonso » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:53 am

Patching from a number of takes to get the best result is a universally accepted feature of the recording process. Errors in the moment on stage are one thing but errors in a medium that can be repeatedly listened to whilst also functioning as a (more or less) permanent record seems untenable. Can the recording process be classed as cheating? No - it's just the way things are done in the studio. Besides, I don't imagine that many of us have any desire to listen to a recording containing mistakes so, for me, using multiple takes to create a tidy performance seems entirely justified.
Last edited by alfonso on Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

delayedMusician

Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by delayedMusician » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:31 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:In one story in this video Svyatoslav Richter described like he received news that his mother is dying in minutes before his first concert in Vienna, and then he could not play well, and then press and critics wrote "Richter plays terrible"" Richter disappointed" "Richter is not good pianist" etc. -
I never understood why musicians give a monkey about what some idiots, i.e. 'critic's say or don't say. Critics are nothing. Even a decent musician probably p**ses all around them.

And S. Richter? Only some braindeads can 'criticize' a legendary performer like Richter. Only the performer is entitled to be dissatisfied with his performance; no one else.

2handband
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by 2handband » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:29 pm

Recording and performing are two completely different art forms. Forget about mistakes... once you've done your share of sessions you learn to start getting it right the first time. But overdubbing allows you to do lots of stuff you can't pull off live. Not to mention save money; if you can bring in one guitar slinger to play all the parts why would you pay for another?

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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by markodarko » Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:41 pm

2handband wrote:Recording and performing are two completely different art forms. Forget about mistakes... once you've done your share of sessions you learn to start getting it right the first time. But overdubbing allows you to do lots of stuff you can't pull off live. Not to mention save money; if you can bring in one guitar slinger to play all the parts why would you pay for another?
I have previously been torn between this. The side of me which has recorded music throughout his life and is well aware that getting the musical aspect down as best as possible - no matter how many takes it, er, takes is very much pro this. However, the "learning the solo classical guitar" side of me is not because I think it can give false hope to those learning the instrument if their <insert chosen guitar hero> can't play a particular piece through to the standard on the CD without requiring multiple takes - unless of course the goal is to get to a stage where one records a CD in multiple takes.

There was a thread about my thoughts here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95680&p=1017183&#p1017183

Now, I think I fall down on the side of "pro" multiple takes because, after all, we are only human and at the end of the day I'd rather listen to a piece of music without a buzzing or dead fretted note than one with - or one where after multiple takes the most vibrant crescendo was used etc.
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Filipp
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by Filipp » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:07 am

So seems like there are two main "pro" arguments:

1) "Everybody does it"
2) "I can't stand listening to mistake over and over again made a recording"

Number 1 needs no time to waste commenting on.

But for number 2, for those who use this argument, can you please provide artist/cd recording and a track number with minute markings (live or otherwise), where that mistake(s) really turn your desire off to listen to that piece.
Please, be careful. I'm not asking to provide me with a track where you have simply noticed a mistake but the one that seriously make you not put that CD on because of that?

Thanks.
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Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:59 am

It's not so much about the mistakes; certainly not about 'cheating': for an accomplished musician, it's about fully realizing the musical ideas in a piece. Look, poets and novelists re-write everything: they're developing their ideas to the fullest extent. Painters paint over canvasses as a matter of course while developing their compositions. I understand that guitarists are interpreting scores, not writing in the moment, but still, it's hard to bring out all that you know about a piece in one go. If you want to re-work a passage in order to show a listening audience more fully all of the aspects of the music as you understand it, then by all means, do so--with the music in mind.

I doubt that Richter gave a rat's ass about critics. As Andrei says: he wanted listeners to concentrate on the music only.

edit: I just realized that this is a long thread...I was just responding to the last few posts; sorry if I'm being redundant.
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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:28 pm

Very interesting theme! I tried to have a discussion here about Music itself - is it sport or is it art? It did not work, seems like people were not interested to discuss it. Here we could see two different views on this subject .
1. Music is sport and all human activity in Music follow sport rules etc.
2. Music is Art, and works similar to Painting, Poetry, Sculpture etc.

A) Seems like performance part of Music very close to sport and follow similar rules and views on it in many ways.
B) Yet it is accepted that Composition of (creation of music in mind or with use of he instrument) music is similar to other Arts.
C) But recording? - seems like it is on the border of both Art and sport...
If it is creation of music, like the recording of new and original piece, then recorded in sections or not - what difference if any it will make? The best measurement for it should that creator, author satisfied with his creation.

Another story if this recording is not creation of any new music, but recording of his/her performance intended for competition with other performers who are recording same pieces of music.
In this case, in this kind of activity, recording in sections would not be proper, because competition could not work in such way.
BUT... many people are not interested in ANY, ALL competitions like that.
Myself I never took part in anything like that. Will not take part in it and do not see any value at all for myself to take part in competitions like that.

Yes, every professional musician, performer have to be a good sportsman in some ways in his discipline. But... if music would be only about sport - then ... where would be no Art in music.
And I do not understand why we have to use word "Music" describing this kind of activity? Why not name it "competition in fast and precise movement of fingers", and include it as a discipline in Sport competitions, world championships etc. Where could be maybe 100 pieces played by every contestant all the time and judges will choose the best.
And then yes - no cheating, no doping etc. All this will be very suitable and applicable.
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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jpryan
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by jpryan » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:46 pm

Depends on which set of rules you're going by and who's enforcing them. It's cheating based on some rules for submitting audition tapes for competitions and master classes. For most purposes I'd be surprised to hear a recording with mistakes left in.
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Pete Meyers

Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by Pete Meyers » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:30 pm

If you have to ask yourself if something is ethical, then you probably already feel somewhere inside that it isn't and getting "permission" from somebody else most likely won't change that. That being said, people have their reasons for doing certain things and I don't think this is a question with a universal answer.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:06 pm

It is clear that we have two different mindsets here.
Two different views on Music and Art in general...

So if for example painter would make any changes to his work, or poet would change any words when he is writing a poem - this would be unethical ?
Should we apply "sport ethic" to art?
Then maybe all art would be denounced as a cheating... And maybe all artists have to work as a performers and compete with each other like performers?
Then maybe value of Art would be measured in competitions - who is drawing something faster and with better precision etc?
But ... I know who will win such competition - computers. robots.

So what is more important for Art - following all kind of strict rules or freedom of expression?
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Is recording in sections cheating?

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:09 pm

I don't think this is as complicated as some are making out. At the beginning of the recording era performers had no choice- editing wasn't technically possible so one take straight onto shellac and that was it. But as the technology evolved so did the editing possibilities. Consequently when performers and producers realised that they weren't limited any longer to one take then there was no looking back. The fact that a recording is, by definition, something that will be listened to repeatedly then editing for the best results becomes the obvious way forward.
I rather like the painting analogy - the painter touches and re-touches a painting until he's happy with it and so do recording artists because now they can.

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