Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

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DaveLloyd
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Location: UK

Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:16 am

At bar / measure #5 of Bach' Premier Prelude (Prelude and Fugue in C major, BWV 846), there is that awful chord which starts with:-

C on the fifth string, third fret
E on the fourth string, at the second fret
A on the third at the second fret
E on the second string at the fifth fret
A on the first string at the fifth fret

Ouch!! :shock:

I've noticed some players play it by barring the second and first strings at the fifth with the pinkie, others use the third finger on the second string, fourth finger on the first string.

You can, of course, finger it elsewhere, but that doesn't really help much. At the seventh fret it's easy, but it doesn't sound right to me.

I'm sure that there must be many guitarists here who have mastered it. I would love to hear how you did so, and also any tips, techniques for developing the hand for the stretch, or just ways to make it easier.

Thanks

Dave

soltirefa
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by soltirefa » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:47 am

It is an uncomfortable chord. It's really kind of a pain in the butt piece in general, especially compared to it played on the piano.

randalljazz
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by randalljazz » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:04 am

don't hold down the chord at all; just finger the notes in a comfortable manner. style brise doesn't require exact note durations. it's music, not gymnastics.
"Beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." -- Ranier Maria Rilke

Rasputin
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by Rasputin » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:26 pm

It's not a piece I play and I haven't looked at the score to see where you are coming from and going to, but for me the easiest way to is to bar more strings than are strictly necessary with the index finger. If I only bar as far as the fourth string, the second finger ends up muting that string. By pushing the bar over I can get the second finger more upright. For the high notes, if I start by placing the index finger then I have to bar with the pinkie, as I can't then get my third finger up to the fifth fret. If I start with the third finger I can do the high notes with the third and fourth (in which case the index bar doesn't have to go so far over in order to prevent the low E being muted) but I don't think I would do it that way unless the third finger was already on the high E.

soltirefa
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Location: Southern California

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by soltirefa » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:42 pm

It's not a piece I play and I haven't looked at the score to see where you are coming from and going to
That reminds me of reviews under a cooking recipe when people say, "I haven't made this, but ..."

DaveLloyd
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Location: UK

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:46 pm

Thanks for the replies guys!
soltirefa wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:47 am
It is an uncomfortable chord. It's really kind of a pain in the butt piece in general, especially compared to it played on the piano.
Gorgeous on the piano, but not too shabby on the guitar? :)

randalljazz wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:04 am
don't hold down the chord at all; just finger the notes in a comfortable manner. style brise doesn't require exact note durations. it's music, not gymnastics.
The problem is that the C on the fifth string has to ring for two beats of the bar before the arpeggio is repeated.

Rasputin wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:26 pm
It's not a piece I play and I haven't looked at the score to see where you are coming from and going to, but for me the easiest way to is to bar more strings than are strictly necessary with the index finger. If I only bar as far as the fourth string, the second finger ends up muting that string. By pushing the bar over I can get the second finger more upright. For the high notes, if I start by placing the index finger then I have to bar with the pinkie, as I can't then get my third finger up to the fifth fret. If I start with the third finger I can do the high notes with the third and fourth (in which case the index bar doesn't have to go so far over in order to prevent the low E being muted) but I don't think I would do it that way unless the third finger was already on the high E.
I agree that holding a full bar, or at least barring the fifth string can help, but the resulting chord (for me), is still horrible.


For me, once I've placed the first and second fingers, there is no way, I can get the third and fourth over to the first two strings at the fifth fret.

I've found that if I reverse the sequence and place my third and fourth fingers first, then I can, just about, form the chord.

If I flatten my hand and bar the first two strings with the pinkie, I just get a muddy mess.

Rasputin
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by Rasputin » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:26 pm

What happens if you rotate / lay back the hand slightly so that the index finger is pointing more towards your right shoulder? Does that make it easier to get 3 and 4 in place? How easy do you find it to make a bar with the pinkie generally? It's not something I do a lot, and I still find it quite awkward, but it got a lot less awkward with just a bit of practice, so taking the rest of it out of the equation and just working on the pinkie bar might help to clear up that muddy mess.

DaveLloyd
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:58 pm

Good tip Rasputin!

I'm finding that if I rotate my entire left arm, so that the elbow is raised, then forming the chord with the index finger, as you say pointing to my right shoulder, and high up on the fingerboard, with almost the first joint above the top of the fingerboard, I can get my pinkie to bar the first two strings.

It sounds rough, but it is getting there. Needs practice — a lot of practice!

merry_zhao
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Location: China

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by merry_zhao » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:27 pm

Use the 8th fret on 6th string for C, it goes like this:

C on 6th string 8th fret, finger 4
E on 5th string 7th fret, finger 2
A on 4th string 7th fret, finger 3

finger 1 press half bar chord the below 2 notes,
E on 2nd string 5th fret,
A on 1st string 5th fret,

This is comfortable moving from the previous bar, and also to the next bar star with C,
When moving to the next bar C, don't reliease the finger on 5th string, just slide it from 7th fret to 3 fret, easy, but move it fast and with all the other notes mute, to play nicely.

If you have anything like to know about this piece, I can help again, I play this piece for more than 10 years, I rearranged it according to the original piano piece, notes on every bar I play is accordingly correct, and the number of the bars is matching(some transcripted piece reducing 1 bar).

Hope you enjoy it.

DaveLloyd
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Location: UK

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:00 am

Hi Merry,

Thanks for the suggestion!

I had already tried that fingering, and also the one at the seventh fret, but I wanted to stick with the Ami chord at the second position.

From what you say, I bet you play it really well.

I used to play it many, many years ago — seems like another lifetime — but I don't remember that Ami chord in the 5th bar. It must have been added more recently. :lol:

Actually, I had a few minutes on the guitar earlier, and I do seem to be mastering it now!

Dave

merry_zhao
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Location: China

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by merry_zhao » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:52 am

Did you master from 8th fret? With the higher A sounds more nice than Am/C.
It's more enjoyable to play with violin, have you tryed? Or organ with the sustain melody. I've only done it once at the stage duet with violin.
You need to have full bars to go with the violin.
Don't know about yours, my sheet missing 1 bar at bar 22(F#)~23(G#), Missing(G): G,D#,B,C,D#,which is hard to arrange and play,but I need to add it on.

DaveLloyd
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Location: UK

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:30 am

Hi Merry,

Sorry, I meant mastering it at the second fret.

You sound like a very competent musician. I'm afraid I am only a hobbyist. I just play for my own pleasure.

I believe the bar you are missing has its own name. It's called the 'Schwenke Measure'. Supposedly added by Christian Friedrich Gottlieb Schwencke to correct what he perceived to be an omission. If you Google it, I'm sure you will find plenty of information,

ETA. These links might help.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... easure.jpg

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php? ... type=topic

merry_zhao
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Location: China

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by merry_zhao » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:40 am

Wow, after so many years, you help me to discovery something new about this piece, thanks!!! I am reading it.

DaveLloyd
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:24 am
Location: UK

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:44 am

You're very welcome! :D

merry_zhao
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Location: China

Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by merry_zhao » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:00 am

But without the Schwencke measure, how can it fit the Gounod Ave Maria? It's a must, right? Only if you play solo.

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