Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

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DaveLloyd
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:12 am


DaveLloyd
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:30 am

Not sure if you need two posts, or twenty to access it Merry, but there is a copy of the score available on this forum:-

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... php?t=3568

Since you have more than two posts, request the mods to give you access to the forum's scores.

ETA. Under your username, top right hand corner of the forum, click on 'User Control Panel', then go across to 'Usergroups' fifth tab along to find more info.

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David Gutowski
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by David Gutowski » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:00 am

Nice piece...I can play it and it's written simple enough to understand. Thanks for requesting the score and I made a copy.
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by merry_zhao » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:13 am

DaveLloyd wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:30 am
Not sure if you need two posts, or twenty to access it Merry, but there is a copy of the score available on this forum:-

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... php?t=3568

Since you have more than two posts, request the mods to give you access to the forum's scores.

ETA. Under your username, top right hand corner of the forum, click on 'User Control Panel', then go across to 'Usergroups' fifth tab along to find more info.
I've got it, thanks, I think it's the same as the one I have before, well, good to have it.

DaveLloyd
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:32 pm

David Gutowski wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:00 am
Nice piece...I can play it and it's written simple enough to understand. Thanks for requesting the score and I made a copy.
No probs! I'm working away at it. It'll probably take me a while though!

merry_zhao wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:13 am
I've got it, thanks, I think it's the same as the one I have before, well, good to have it.
I have several versions all pretty much identical.

Did you read about Czerny, Gounod, and the missing bar?

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by merry_zhao » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:48 pm

merry_zhao wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:13 am
I've got it, thanks, I think it's the same as the one I have before, well, good to have it.
I have several versions all pretty much identical.

Did you read about Czerny, Gounod, and the missing bar?
[/quote]

Yes, read it, it might be created by his musical idea not originally from bach's autogragh, but without it after 22 measure cannot go alone with Gounod vocal, someone feels uncomfortable with it, and some other think it's ok. To me, it's neccessary because of the Gounod.

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by zupfgeiger » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:14 pm

I play this prelude for years and don't find bar 5 overly difficult, compared for example to BWV 999, a similar piece. There you find in measure 15 F on first fret of 6th string and pinky holding c, e and a on the fifth fret. It takes a while until you are familiar with such a stretch.
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Conall
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by Conall » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:11 pm

I know it's not particularly helpful but the piece itself does not as a whole work well on the guitar. The beginning looks as if should but the range of the piece is far too wide for the guitar without drastic changing of the octave.

Maybe try something from the violin / cello or "lute" collections?

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:21 pm

zupfgeiger wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:14 pm
I play this prelude for years and don't find bar 5 overly difficult, compared for example to BWV 999, a similar piece. There you find in measure 15 F on first fret of 6th string and pinky holding c, e and a on the fifth fret. It takes a while until you are familiar with such a stretch.
Hhmmm! Sounds like fun! I think I'll give that one a miss zupfeiger.
Conall wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:11 pm
I know it's not particularly helpful but the piece itself does not as a whole work well on the guitar. The beginning looks as if should but the range of the piece is far too wide for the guitar without drastic changing of the octave.

Maybe try something from the violin / cello or "lute" collections?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean Conall? The range is from the open E on the 6th string, to A, at the fifth fret on the 1st string. I think the piano music is pretty similar.

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by Conall » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm

DaveLloyd wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:21 pm
zupfgeiger wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:14 pm
I play this prelude for years and don't find bar 5 overly difficult, compared for example to BWV 999, a similar piece. There you find in measure 15 F on first fret of 6th string and pinky holding c, e and a on the fifth fret. It takes a while until you are familiar with such a stretch.
Hhmmm! Sounds like fun! I think I'll give that one a miss zupfeiger.
Conall wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:11 pm
I know it's not particularly helpful but the piece itself does not as a whole work well on the guitar. The beginning looks as if should but the range of the piece is far too wide for the guitar without drastic changing of the octave.

Maybe try something from the violin / cello or "lute" collections?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean Conall? The range is from the open E on the 6th string, to A, at the fifth fret on the 1st string. I think the piano music is pretty similar.
Hi David,
If you go to the keyboard score it is in C major with a range from the C a major 3rd lower than our E 6th string up to our highest A in the 17th fret 1st string. In order to make the piece sort-of playable there have to be many octave transpositions within the piece.

Here are some pdfs of the original for keyboard: http://imslp.org/wiki/Prelude_and_Fugue ... Sebastian)

You will remember that guitar music is written on octave higher than it sounds. So the beginning of your arrangement should look like the start of the keyboard arrangement but in fact sounds one octave lower. This (if you are to play the whole piece sounding one octave lower than keyboard) means the range becomes absurdly low (lower than a normal bass guitar) if you don't alter the octaves. Theoretically, if you have a 7 or 8 string guitar with the 7th or 8th tuned to low C (sound) below our 6th E this guitar would contain all the notes at the correct octave but it's unplayable / unidiomatic because of the stretches and high range. The start of the piece would be stupidly high (12th position) and have to be played semi-staccato as it's not possible to adequately sustain the notes up there. It would also be extremely difficult.

Clearly your arrangement has some major compromises - but if you are OK with them then that's fine. It is frustrating though because the beginning of the piece feels like it should fit on the guitar when it's written an octave lower than (but looks similar to) the original keyboard score.

Re: your stretch / the chord you are talking about - if I did play it I would use a mini barre in the 2nd fret angled to press only the E & A on the 4th & 3rd strings and press the E & A on the 2nd & 5th with the pinkie (barred).
Interestingly the famous BWV 999 prelude contains a similar problem stretch at bar 15 - except the pinkie has to cover 3 strings! Delcamp's own arrangement is here:
http://www.delcamp.net/pdf/johann_sebas ... relude.pdf

Keyboard music is much harder to arrange for the guitar because of the massive range it has compared to our instrument and the 10 fingers the player can use instead of the 4 we can fret with! All the Bach violin & cello unaccompanied pieces fit much better on the guitar though some need transposition (of the entire piece).

I'd say try another prelude such as from the Bach cello suite nr 1.
Here's one version for guitar in D (the key most often transposed to from the original G below):
https://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/w ... e-Free.pdf

Stanley Yates arranges it in C major - you might find that key easier.

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by soltirefa » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:12 pm

For what it's worth, if you want to hear my rendition of this piece, do a Google search for

sound click gb classical guitar

and choose the result for the music page and look for Bach Prelude No. 1

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:35 pm

Conall wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm
Hi David,
If you go to the keyboard score it is in C major with a range from the C a major 3rd lower than our E 6th string up to our highest A in the 17th fret 1st string. In order to make the piece sort-of playable there have to be many octave transpositions within the piece . . .
Hi Conall,

I do realise that the guitar notation is written an octave above its actual pitch, but given that, this piece still works for me. I do have piano transcriptions that I bought for my wife to play.

I get what you're saying about keyboard music vs violin, or cello pieces, and I know that these days, there is a lot of debate over what can appropriately be transcribed for guitar, and what can't, but for me this is a beautiful piano piece that can still sound beautiful on the guitar. I've always found it so. I used to play, or at least attempt to play it (can't remember which), as far back as the sixties.

You're musical sensibilities are probably somewhat more highly refined than mine. I just play to amuse myself which means I have a great deal of freedom. :D

The stretch on the Ami chord? I have been practicing it precisely as you suggest, and I have just about mastered it now.

The Bach Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major has always been a favourite of mine. I love it on the guitar, but perversely, I probably prefer it on the cello. The first time I ever heard it played was on a friend's new HiFi system, and it was on a vinyl LP of the Bach Cello Suites played by Paul Tortelier. Tortelier had me absolutely hooked from the opening note!

Thanks for the link. I do have other versions in D but one more won't go amiss.

ETA. I must confess that the the fact that the range is so wide on the piano had escaped me.
Last edited by DaveLloyd on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

DaveLloyd
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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by DaveLloyd » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:59 pm

soltirefa wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:12 pm
For what it's worth, if you want to hear my rendition of this piece, do a Google search for

sound click gb classical guitar

and choose the result for the music page and look for Bach Prelude No. 1
Hi soltirefa,

I found a guitar version played on a 7 string German Vazquez which, I'm guessing was you?

Very nicely played! :)

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by soltirefa » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 am

I found a guitar version played on a 7 string German Vazquez which, I'm guessing was you?

Very nicely played! :)
Yes, I am he. I recorded that years ago. I ended up finding it kind of a pain to keep up that piece, so I dropped it. But now this thread has me rethinking that, especially now that I have a 630mm 7-string. That might make it smoother to play.

Thanks for the nice comment and encouragement!

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Re: Bach's BWV 846 Prelude, Bar / Measure #5

Post by Conall » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:10 pm

DaveLloyd wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:35 pm
Conall wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm
Hi David,
If you go to the keyboard score it is in C major with a range from the C a major 3rd lower than our E 6th string up to our highest A in the 17th fret 1st string. In order to make the piece sort-of playable there have to be many octave transpositions within the piece . . .
Hi Conall,

I do realise that the guitar notation is written an octave above its actual pitch, but given that, this piece still works for me. I do have piano transcriptions that I bought for my wife to play.

I get what you're saying about keyboard music vs violin, or cello pieces, and I know that these days, there is a lot of debate over what can appropriately be transcribed for guitar, and what can't, but for me this is a beautiful piano piece that can still sound beautiful on the guitar. I've always found it so. I used to play, or at least attempt to play it (can't remember which), as far back as the sixties.

You're musical sensibilities are probably somewhat more highly refined than mine. I just play to amuse myself which means I have a great deal of freedom. :D

The stretch on the Ami chord? I have been practicing it precisely as you suggest, and I have just about mastered it now.

The Bach Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major has always been a favourite of mine. I love it on the guitar, but perversely, I probably prefer it on the cello. The first time I ever heard it played was on a friend's new HiFi system, and it was on a vinyl LP of the Bach Cello Suites played by Paul Tortelier. Tortelier had me absolutely hooked from the opening note!

Thanks for the link. I do have other versions in D but one more won't go amiss.

ETA. I must confess that the the fact that the range is so wide on the piano had escaped me.
Hi David,

Sorry if I came across as a bit put-downish. I didn't intend to. I wouldn't say may tastes are especially refined but I am a massive fan of Bach's music.
After reading your post I went back to the keyboard original & tried it with my 8 string (normal + low D & C) and even with that (slightly) extended range I felt I couldn't do the piece justice.
Aside from the range problem there's also the issue of not being able to sustain the 2nd note (as written) if sustaining the first of every bar (in many cases) or vice versa because the 2nd note is often on the same string.
To me this is a compromise too far. But, as I said, if you are ok with it then that's fine.
I forgot to mention the Dm lute prelude (originally in Cm) as another alternative but you probably play that one already.
I play piano too so in my case I play the BWV 846 on that instrument seeing as it is much easier even with my limited piano skills. I don't rate the piano for timbral variation & subtlety (that's fab on the guitar) but it certainly works very well technically on the piano (naturally, since it was originally for keyboard).

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