F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

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Tom Poore
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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by Tom Poore » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:35 pm

I rather like the rests in all the measures David highlighted. So I observed them in my own recording:



Here’s my interpretative take on these rests:

• In mm. 1 & 5, the third beat rest highlights the arrival of the quarter note E after the dotted rhythms of the first two beats.
• In mm. 17 & 21, the second and third beat rests create a drier texture to set up the harmonic twists in the following measure.

It’s well to remember that this is an etude. Sor likely intended such works as studies in phrasing and articulation—not just technique. Anyway, that’s how he explained it to me when I last saw him.

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David Norton
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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by David Norton » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:20 pm

This sounds fine, Tom, good playing from you as usual.

More and more, I am of the opinion that there's an underlying philosophy or culture of early 1800s CG notation that we just don't fully grasp 175 years later. Because in order to adhere strictly to all these rests, it increases the difficulty of performance by a few notches. So to my 1970s-educated mindset, we're working disproportionately hard to precisely follow the written scores. And when I listen to modern composers/players playing their own compositions/arrangements, more often than not THEY are blowing through written rests like no one's business. Not always, some are quite assiduous in fidelity to what's written, but they are in the minority.

Don't even get started on my wife's collection of harp recordings..........

In this Sor 35/14 example here, the open A bass "does no harm" to the upper line either to be sustained, or to be dampened. No real impact up or down, save in the mind of the player. Put another way: play this without the rests dampened for a reasonably knowledgeable music colleague **without giving her the score to read from** and see if any eyebrows get raised. Then you could give her the score, play it again without dampening the rests, but without commentary either, and see if it even gets picked up on then. I'd be pretty surprised if it was noticed at all.

The very same thing would apply to Carcassi Etude #1, to Carcassi Etude #16, to Bach BWV 999, and to tens of dozens of other CG works where the dampened notes are harmonically consonant with whatever else is going on in that measure. The listener's ear isn't offended, so without score-in-hand it is unnoticeable.

Next topic: how many Parisian angels can dance on the head of a pin made in Barcelona?
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First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor Op. 60" project

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Tom Poore
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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by Tom Poore » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:32 am

David Norton wrote:In this Sor 35/14 example here, the open A bass "does no harm" to the upper line either to be sustained, or to be dampened. No real impact up or down, save in the mind of the player. Put another way: play this without the rests dampened for a reasonably knowledgeable music colleague **without giving her the score to read from** and see if any eyebrows get raised. Then you could give her the score, play it again without dampening the rests, but without commentary either, and see if it even gets picked up on then. I'd be pretty surprised if it was noticed at all.
Without sheet music in hand, no one will notice. With the sheet music in hand, perceptive musicians will notice. And given a choice between an expressively detailed performance and one that’s not, perceptive listeners—even non-musicians—will notice. The smart non-musicians may not know why, but they’ll sense something better about the more detailed performance.

The best performances are rich in expressively apt details. If recorded, these are the performances one must hear more than once. Repeated hearings reveal details that earlier go unnoticed. The best players know this. So their performances are like Russian nesting dolls, with felicitous details hidden within felicitous details.

Here’s something I say to advanced students: “Players get the audience they deserve.” Players who think listeners are dumb will attract dumb listeners. Players who think listeners are smart will attract smart listeners.

Given a choice, one should aim for the smart listener. It’s harder to do, but more rewarding.

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by 2lost2find » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:06 am

Tom Poore wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:32 am
David Norton wrote:In this Sor 35/14 example here, the open A bass "does no harm" to the upper line either to be sustained, or to be dampened. No real impact up or down, save in the mind of the player. Put another way: play this without the rests dampened for a reasonably knowledgeable music colleague **without giving her the score to read from** and see if any eyebrows get raised. Then you could give her the score, play it again without dampening the rests, but without commentary either, and see if it even gets picked up on then. I'd be pretty surprised if it was noticed at all.
Without sheet music in hand, no one will notice. With the sheet music in hand, perceptive musicians will notice. And given a choice between an expressively detailed performance and one that’s not, perceptive listeners—even non-musicians—will notice. The smart non-musicians may not know why, but they’ll sense something better about the more detailed performance.

The best performances are rich in expressively apt details. If recorded, these are the performances one must hear more than once. Repeated hearings reveal details that earlier go unnoticed. The best players know this. So their performances are like Russian nesting dolls, with felicitous details hidden within felicitous details.

Here’s something I say to advanced students: “Players get the audience they deserve.” Players who think listeners are dumb will attract dumb listeners. Players who think listeners are smart will attract smart listeners.

Given a choice, one should aim for the smart listener. It’s harder to do, but more rewarding.

Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA
Pretty much this. PLUS, I'm going to throw out there that if the composer put in rests where it would be easier to just write a long note there is probably a reason. Rachael has already whapped people over the head with the words of Aguado a few times in threads like these, so I shall refrain... :lol:

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by Alexander Kalil » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:47 pm

What Tom and 2lost2find said. I'd like to add that strictly observing the rests doesn't necessarily make the music harder to play. It depends on the performer's training. For me, playing the rests is often easier than ignoring them, not the other way round. My fingers have been trained to execute the rests in the score I'am reading as if ordinary, silent notes. They now do it reflexively; it would cost me extra effort to prevent them from doing so!

( And nice playing Tom. At first I didn't think much of that study but after hearing your rendition I changed my mind. Good job! )

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by 2lost2find » Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:21 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:47 pm
I'd like to add that strictly observing the rests doesn't necessarily make the music harder to play.
Honestly I wasn't going to go there but yes... those rests are trivial to execute. Just drop your thumb onto the string.

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by MartinCogg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:37 pm

Wuuthrad wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:01 am
BTW I love this study! It's almost like a wartime death march call to battle. It's quit evocative- I can hear Sor's laments, playing in protest street bands as Napoleon invaded.
:?:

though yes, a lament - actually based upon an Olde English ditty - about a quest for a fishy supper...
(lamenting pennies spent when fish are free)

POACHERS LAMENT ~

I set out to filch a fish for Phyllis
caught one but it flipped back in the river
and it swam and swam and swam so far away
I wonder where it might have gone

To the hills to the sea
as free as can be
maybe caught further down
further up (not by me)
what to do? what to do? what to do? what to do?
Phyllis sore wanted fish for her supper...

As I wandered back and forth and pondered
a plan quite bold jumped into my noggin
I went straightways to a shop
bought smoked-salmon
and some treacle pud - good with custard!
The Poacher's Lament.png
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:21 pm

Wuuthrad wrote:BTW I love this study! It's almost like a wartime death march call to battle. It's quit evocative- I can hear Sor's laments, playing in protest street bands as Napoleon invaded.
Except that Sor was one of the "afrancesado"- his street songs were hardly laments but works of rousing patriotism ... and in support of Napoleon.

His known approval of enlightenment ideas and acceptance of a position in the government of occupation led to his fleeing for France when the Spanish eventually came back into power - he was never to return.

An ironic fate for a patriot. Now there might be a bit of lamentation.
MartinCogg wrote:POACHERS LAMENT
I sang your song Martin. It made me laugh out loud at, "I wonder where it might have gone?"

The piece is ruined for me now. Thanks a lot!

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by Lawler » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:06 pm

MartinCogg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:37 pm
... POACHERS LAMENT ~


The Poacher's Lament.png
I'm hearing this as the start of a Broadway musical, Martin.

Voice and simple guitar accompaniment? Or even better, a vocal trio of poachers fleshing out Sor's lines as written, with contrasting lyrics added where appropriate for the middle and lower voices. The bass voice, in my mind, would sing many of their notes with just the word "fish" and other notes with just the word "no". But what about those pesky rests in the bass line's last 8 bars? Still a dilemma.

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by jscott » Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:49 pm

A lot of people who lived in countries the French invaded were pro-Napoleon. Usually, the well educated. The first part of the Charterhouse of Parma reflects some of this over-the-top feeling. And of course, War and Peace has its pro-Napoleon Russian voices too. For that matter,it has Napoleon himself speaking!
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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by Wuuthrad » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:53 am

MartinCogg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:37 pm
Wuuthrad wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:01 am
BTW I love this study! It's almost like a wartime death march call to battle. It's quit evocative- I can hear Sor's laments, playing in protest street bands as Napoleon invaded.
:?:

though yes, a lament - actually based upon an Olde English ditty - about a quest for a fishy supper...
(lamenting pennies spent when fish are free)

POACHERS LAMENT ~

I set out to filch a fish for Phyllis
caught one but it flipped back in the river
and it swam and swam and swam so far away
I wonder where it might have gone

To the hills to the sea
as free as can be
maybe caught further down
further up (not by me)
what to do? what to do? what to do? what to do?
Phyllis sore wanted fish for her supper...

As I wandered back and forth and pondered
a plan quite bold jumped into my noggin
I went straightways to a shop
bought smoked-salmon
and some treacle pud - good with custard!

The Poacher's Lament.png
This is absolutely one of my favorite posts ever; in here or any website forum, and thanks for all the info gentlemen!
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by jscott » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:09 am

And now someone MUST record this and post it post haste!
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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by MartinCogg » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:10 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:21 pm

The piece is ruined for me now. Thanks a lot!
You're welcome Mark...
permit me to reinforce the ruin with the more-recently-found first first-section verse...

We'd no sooner eaten both our porridge
pipes Phyllis "What have we for this evening?"
I declared the fridge as full of veg delights
but she said "Fish! oh fish, prithee..."
The Poacher's Lament + a green first verse.png
(I hope to reinforce it further with a second second-section verse, in due course) -
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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by MartinCogg » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:14 pm

Lawler wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:06 pm

I'm hearing this as the start of a Broadway musical, Martin.
The START :?: - but Lawler this is song number 14 of the op35 singalongaSor show :!:

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Re: F. Sor Exercise Op. 35 Nr 14 - Inconsistent notation

Post by Lawler » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:18 pm

MartinCogg wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:10 pm
(I hope to reinforce it further with a second second-section verse, in due course) -
Please do. I'll wait for it.

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