Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

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VCG
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Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by VCG » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:31 am

Hello,
I wanted to ask. How you play rest stroke with bass at the same time?

example,
out2.PNG
At this passage, I want to play all rest stroke. But, the basses (D, E) doesn't allow me.

Is the technique of rest stroking and bass at the same time worth training?
I didn't find manuals talking about playing rest stroke and bass at the same time.

Thank you for you answer.

P.S. Sorry for my bad English :)
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Todd Tipton
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Todd Tipton » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:56 pm

I am not sure I understand the problem, but I will try. You probably want to play the basses with a p free stroke. This will allow you to play all of the melody with rest strokes. I would not want to play the basses with a rest stroke.
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Frank Nordberg
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Frank Nordberg » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:20 pm

VCG wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:31 am
Is the technique of rest stroking and bass at the same time worth training?
Oh, definitely yes! Rest strokes can be great for emphasizing specific notes in a run and those notes are often played at the same time as a bass note.

That being said, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to play all of this passage with rest strokes. I would probably play the e sharp with a rest stroke and maybe the low f sharp too but for the rest of the passage I think you'll get a better result with free strokes. However, if you want to play everything with rest strokes, the only option is to dampen the bass notes a bit early.

As for that question nobody has asked in this thread yet but somebody is bound to bring up (yes, I got a hint of precognition here :P ): switching between rest stroke and free stroke during a passage is not difficult. The difference should only be the angle of your stroke, no significant changes in the hand position.

Conall
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Conall » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:21 pm

Hi VCG,

Yes, it's a worthwhile technique whether you use it here or not.

The trick is to use an upward thumb free stroke while using rest stroke in the other RH fingers. If you find it difficult try breaking the double stops (play the free stroke bass note just before the rest stroke treble note & eventually play them at the same time).

I've uploaded a short video clip of your passage played entirely with rest stroke in the melody:

http://imgur.com/a/AXLh8Fj

Note that my phone has lousy sound so the bass notes are much quieter than they really are live and also that I have fret buzz on the F# on the 4th string. But it should give you an idea.

VCG
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by VCG » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:01 am

Thanks :D ,
Sometimes it's more tempting to go on the easy way,
than practice technique..

@Conall, the video helps.

Conall
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Conall » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:19 pm

VCG wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:01 am
Thanks :D ,
Sometimes it's more tempting to go on the easy way,
than practice technique..

@Conall, the video helps.
Great!

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Julian Ward
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Julian Ward » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:34 am

As Conall says, you need to learn it with a delay that gradually gets closer in time.

This is a well known problem and I teach it to students alot. The problem, unlike many classical guitar techniques is not physical - it is entirely mental.
The brain cannot cope with the fingers playing an opposite technique to the thumb. Again, unless you teach a lot of students, you would not realise that this problem exists. Even if pupils learn entirely rest stroke and then open string free stroke bass notes are introduced, they still cannot combine them at the same time, because their brain just won't allow it!

To practise, play the low E bass note with thumb followed by 4 open E notes as rest stroke (alternated fingers of course). Keep playing this pattern over and over. Every minute or so bring the thumb stroke closer and closer to the start of the first finger stroke. For a while, your playing will always have a slight delay, it sounds kind of musical like this, but in time you will control this easily.

Don't practise this technique with any fretted notes at all.
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LipeB
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by LipeB » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:08 pm

Julian Ward wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:34 am
Don't practise this technique with any fretted notes at all.
I’m sorry, but what is the reason for not practicing with fretted notes?

I’m having this problem as well during Gran Vals.

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Julian Ward
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Julian Ward » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:32 pm

Because trying to practise this technique at first whilst thinking about fretting notes, detracts from the skill. So practise the skill in total isolation from anything else that requires any other skills or thoughts... until you start to get the hang of it. :) :)
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LipeB
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by LipeB » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:15 pm

Julian Ward wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:32 pm
Because trying to practise this technique at first whilst thinking about fretting notes, detracts from the skill. So practise the skill in total isolation from anything else that requires any other skills or thoughts... until you start to get the hang of it. :) :)
Very nice! Thank you!

VCG
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by VCG » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:36 am

very interesting, Thanks Julian.
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Robin
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Robin » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:49 pm

Ricardo Iznaola addresses this skill in the preparatory level of his book, "Kitharologous". Exercises number 4 and 5 introduce the thumb to finger alternation on open strings and exercise number 8 introduces thumb and finger playing at the same time, again on open strings. In each exercise he requires three combinations:
a) p rest stroke with i,m,a free stroke
b) p free stroke with i,m,a rest stroke
c) p free stroke with i,m,a free stroke

This all sounds deceptively easy but it really isn't as it requires a stable, relaxed hand position and challenges our finger independence.

Robin
So much music, so little time.

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Sebastian
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Sebastian » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:39 pm

I remember one of my older professors could play tremolo stuff with rest strokes... Like Recuerdos de la Alhambra and I also remember Mercado's arrangement of Ave María (Schubert), or Una Limosnita por el Amor de Dios.
Also If I recall correctly Alirio Díaz also plays tremolo with only rest strokes.

PS: wait wait wait, second bar of the screeshot you take says E# (and it states that IT HAS TO BE PLAYED WITH FINGER 1), and then the same E (which should be sharp too as it occurs in the same bar) to be played on open string?
You're reading this.

barcod
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by barcod » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:55 am

Robin wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:49 pm
a) p rest stroke with i,m,a free stroke
Recently had to learn to do this for playing Flamenco passages. It feels very weird until you get the hang of it (or think that you did).

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Paul Janssen
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Re: Rest stroke melody and Bass at the same time

Post by Paul Janssen » Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:36 pm

VCG wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:31 am
Is the technique of rest stroking and bass at the same time worth training?
I didn't find manuals talking about playing rest stroke and bass at the same time.
Yes this technique (like nearly all techniques on the classical guitar) is worth learning. You can think of techniques a little like tools in a toolbox - you might not need a hammer every day but you'll be grateful that you have one when you need to hammer in a nail!!

Julio Sagreras introduced the technique of playing free stroke thumb with rest stroke fingers very early on in his first guitar lesson book Las primeras lecciones de guitarra. If you don't already have a copy of of this technique book you can view it here on this forum at https://www.delcamp.net/pdf/Julio_Salva ... itarra.pdf.

Refer to Leccion 38 and Leccion 39 where this technique is first introduced and explained (page 19 on the link provided above).

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