El Noi de la Mare question

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richhaynal

El Noi de la Mare question

Post by richhaynal » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:28 pm

Hi,

I am having a lot of problems fingering the second chord in the 7th measure of El Noi de la Mare. I am trying to use fingering from the Llobet book from our forum (p72). I'd cut & paste it but I am not sure how to do that with a pdf.

When I try to analyze why it's a problem for me there appears to be 2 streches going on at the same time. The second and third fingers vertically betweem the 1st and 6th string on the 5th fret. And the 1st and 4th fingers strech horizontally from the 4th to 7th fret.

Has anyone found an exercise that would help with this type of strech?

JQ.

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by JQ. » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:30 pm

richhaynal wrote:I'd cut & paste it but I am not sure how to do that with a pdf.
The easiest way to do that is to take a screen shot and crop it, like this:
Lllobet-measure7.jpg
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ramsnake

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by ramsnake » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:41 pm

Yes, don't play it that way. Either concentrate on the integrity of the 3rds by leaving the b out which is not doing anything but filling out the harmony and making that passage more difficult to play or do what Segovia did. Here is that 7th bar as transcribed by Gerard Garno in his book on "A new look at Segovia - His life and his music"
Segovia's solution was, in the interest of melodic integrity, which is after all what this piece is all about, to actually change the harmony at the point. Sounds great too and is easier to play.
IMG_1095.JPG
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richhaynal

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by richhaynal » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:51 am

JQ. wrote:
richhaynal wrote:I'd cut & paste it but I am not sure how to do that with a pdf.
The easiest way to do that is to take a screen shot and crop it, like this:

Thanks ... a good tip, I will remember this one!

richhaynal

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by richhaynal » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:05 am

ramsnake wrote:Yes, don't play it that way. Either concentrate on the integrity of the 3rds by leaving the b out which is not doing anything but filling out the harmony and making that passage more difficult to play or do what Segovia did. Here is that 7th bar as transcribed by Gerard Garno in his book on "A new look at Segovia - His life and his music"
Segovia's solution was, in the interest of melodic integrity, which is after all what this piece is all about, to actually change the harmony at the point. Sounds great too and is easier to play.
Thanks! I'll give it a try!

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David Norton
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Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by David Norton » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:03 pm

TO THE MODERATORS:

I believe discussing of this piece (regardless of its intrinsic beauty and well-deserved popularity, I have played it each December for decades) falls outside of forum guidelines vis-a-vis religion.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=49803

Please clarify whether or not continued discussion of this piece may be allowed, or how the cited rule may be amended to permit discussion.
David Norton
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First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

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Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by GeoffB » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:36 pm

Hi David, thanks for raising this. The piece is one of a number of works which are allowed here because they are part of the classical canon for CG, i.e. a piece which serious guitarists might be expected to study. There is no problem in discussing it musically, though of course discussion of any religious connotations of the piece should be avoided.

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David Norton
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Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by David Norton » Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:17 pm

Perhaps the rule which I cited may be formally amended to include this explanation? As it stands right now, this topic (regarding notation of a religious song) may be in violation of a narrow interpretation of the rule.
David Norton
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First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

ramsnake

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by ramsnake » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:02 pm

I don't think there is any need to do that David. The discussion here has been purely about technique and I am not aware this piece has any religious significance in any case! :?

JQ.

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by JQ. » Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:20 pm

ramsnake wrote:The discussion here has been purely about technique and I am not aware this piece has any religious significance in any case! :?
The title translates as "The Son of Mary" and it's a traditional Catalan Christmas folksong.

ramsnake

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by ramsnake » Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:30 pm

A Catalonian Folk song nonetheless!

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Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by GeoffB » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:06 am

The main thing is that it's a Llobet arrangement which is an important part of the classical guitar repertoire. If in doubt about a piece, check whether M. Delcamp has posted it on this site (either as a score or a recording). They are the exceptions to the religious music rule which are OK to post or discuss (from a technical point of view).

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ramsnake

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by ramsnake » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:11 am

I was the person who volunteered to score this piece at M. Delcamp's request when Llobet's works were released from copyright.

http://www.delcamp.at/pdf/Miguel_Llobet ... a_Mare.pdf

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Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by David Crooks » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:49 am

Ramsnake and the others are right in suggesting that if there's an easier way of doing something, esp. in performance, then take it. On the other hand, you could argue that working to overcome a technical difficulty is worth doing for its own sake, in that it improves your overall technique, and prepares you for other difficult passages where there might be no easy alternative.

There are plenty of stretch exercises in all the usual places, though here, as often, it isn't just a matter of flexibility but also of finger independence, and that should be worked on as well. However, if you analyse and break down what is going on in this passage, in terms of technique, it becomes a bit more approachable. First of all, you might want to think about fingering the first beat with second on the F#, and third on the D - which is where they are at the end of the previous measure. This I think makes the move to G and E a bit easier - the second finger is already on the correct string, and legato is easier to maintain.

When it comes to the chord on the second beat, the main thing to bear in mind is that you are not "grabbing" it - fingers 3 and 4 are already in place. Thus there are two distinct elements in the technical problem. Work on each separately, starting with the move from G/E to A/F#. The fourth finger is already on the correct string, so just needs to be glided into place, using the string as a "rail". This allows you to focus on placement of the third finger - to paraphrase John Williams, look after the third finger, and the rest can look after themselves. (Remember to mute the fifth string with the thumb at the appropriate point.) Work on this, back and forth, making sure that when the second finger releases during the transition, it moves towards the sixth string. Because of the relative positions of three and four, the second finger will naturally fall on the fifth fret: thus the move itself towards the sixth string takes care of one part of the second element, the bass G. For the other part, the B in the inner voice, maybe you might consider barring at CIV: this removes the need for accuracy with the first finger, which is already in IV position.

By breaking down the problem in this way, I think it's clear that the first move is crucial. If that is done properly, so that three and four arrive at the right place and in the right shape, then getting one and two into position is relatively straightforward. That in itself should tell you what to work on, and how to work on it.

Cookie

richhaynal

Re: El Noi de la Mare question

Post by richhaynal » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:35 pm

Thanks! That gives me something to work at.
cookie wrote: There are plenty of stretch exercises in all the usual places, though here, as often, it isn't just a matter of flexibility but also of finger independence, and that should be worked on as well. However, if you analyse and break down what is going on in this passage, in terms of technique, it becomes a bit more approachable. First of all, you might want to think about fingering the first beat with second on the F#, and third on the D - which is where they are at the end of the previous measure. This I think makes the move to G and E a bit easier - the second finger is already on the correct string, and legato is easier to maintain.

When it comes to the chord on the second beat, the main thing to bear in mind is that you are not "grabbing" it - fingers 3 and 4 are already in place. Thus there are two distinct elements in the technical problem. Work on each separately, starting with the move from G/E to A/F#. The fourth finger is already on the correct string, so just needs to be glided into place, using the string as a "rail". This allows you to focus on placement of the third finger - to paraphrase John Williams, look after the third finger, and the rest can look after themselves. (Remember to mute the fifth string with the thumb at the appropriate point.) Work on this, back and forth, making sure that when the second finger releases during the transition, it moves towards the sixth string. Because of the relative positions of three and four, the second finger will naturally fall on the fifth fret: thus the move itself towards the sixth string takes care of one part of the second element, the bass G. For the other part, the B in the inner voice, maybe you might consider barring at CIV: this removes the need for accuracy with the first finger, which is already in IV position.

By breaking down the problem in this way, I think it's clear that the first move is crucial. If that is done properly, so that three and four arrive at the right place and in the right shape, then getting one and two into position is relatively straightforward. That in itself should tell you what to work on, and how to work on it.

Cookie

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