D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

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James A. Showalter
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by James A. Showalter » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:37 pm

An observation-

So I've been thinking about scales and key signatures motivated by these discussions and though my practice regimen is not up to speed for submitting assignments (I am delinquent on lesson-3 and now 4) I am advancing my learning through these lessons.

Starting in Lesson-3 and now in Lesson-4 I am noting that some of the musical pieces begin by providing somewhat of a musical scale before the start of each piece(score). Is this a convenience to familiarize us with the note positions we will be using or is JFD providing insight into the melodic progression of the music? In each case all notes are natural with no sharps or flats but for different musical pieces the scales as such are different.

"La Bonne Aventure" starts with a sequence of notes EF_G_A_BC_D_EF. Kind of an extra note on that one if it is a scale. There are no sharps or flats so is it a modified C-Major or perhaps A-minor?

"Sur Le Pont D'Avignon" starts with a scale in G, again all natural. (G_A_BC_D_EF_G)

"Good-Morning To All" uses the same G-scale. (G_A_BC_D_EF_G)

If you compare the scale used in "La Bonne Aventure" (EF_G_A_BC_D_EF) and evaluate the grouping indicator (simply the string numbers) of notes beneath the scale you will realize it is not much different from the G-scale (G_A_BC_D_EF_G).

If you look closely at the scale provided for "Lo, Nous Marchons Sur Un Etroit Chemin" you will note that it is in Am (A_BC_D_EF_G_A) but the note grouping below the scale correlates with every scale provided for each piece we are studying. In your evaluation look also at the extended C-Major scale provided with Scarborough Fair. The note grouping beneath the scale as illustrated also correlates with each of these pieces.

So my observation is that we are studying variations of the natural scale (individual natural modes) and the association of notes or grouping of these modes is the same for each piece. I think this must tell us something about the melodic composition of each piece but I don't know how to express it. It is surely in the music. Any thoughts?

Apparently the scales are for familiarization only. Any relation to actual known scales is for intellectual thought only.
Last edited by James A. Showalter on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

Tales Lucin
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Tales Lucin » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:50 am

My submission:
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Yucel Kamcez
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Yucel Kamcez » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:52 pm

Hi,

La Cucaracha became my nightmare...
I have made 20 plus video records, there are only 6-7 samples which I can play all piece of music completely but each one of all has some defects.
Sorry for that.


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James A. Showalter
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by James A. Showalter » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:51 am

Yucel,

No apologies necessary. In fact, I think that is the point.

I am behind in the 3rd and now 4th lesson not because I have not attempted them but because I cannot play them at a level that could be considered as a contribution to this group. So I'll keep struggling and hopefully keep up.

I may be a perpetual student of these lessons and never reach the end.

So it goes.
James
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

Yucel Kamcez
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Yucel Kamcez » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:00 am

Hi, all,

I tried something. I hope you enjoy!

Have a nice day
---

Anonyme : La cucaracha


Anonyme : C'est la cloche du vieux manoir


Anonyme : Le coucou


D01 p23 Alouette, gentille alouette


Anonyme : Vent frais, vent du matin


D01 p24 Lundi Matin


D01 p25 Cadet Rousselle

Yucel Kamcez
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Yucel Kamcez » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:07 am

James A. Showalter wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:51 am
Yucel,

No apologies necessary. In fact, I think that is the point.

I am behind in the 3rd and now 4th lesson not because I have not attempted them but because I cannot play them at a level that could be considered as a contribution to this group. So I'll keep struggling and hopefully keep up.

I may be a perpetual student of these lessons and never reach the end.

So it goes.
James
Thank you for your comment, dear James.
I really feel that I have to dig deep because of the lost many years without playing
:)
Sincerely,

Grayson Bray Morris
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Grayson Bray Morris » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:15 pm

Great work, Juan and Yucel!

Juan, your timing seemed to me quite good on everything but La Cucaracha — and I'm pretty sure all the focus you're putting onto your timing will pay off down the road. Your style is already quite fluid.

Yucel, holy cow was that a speedy Cucaracha! Hats off. I'll repeat for you an observation I just made for Jules in Lesson 1: your fretting thumb seems very high on the back of the neck, which might possibly become a hindrance down the road — though it doesn't seem to be one for you now, so do with this observation what you will.

(Tales, as I noted in the Lesson 2 thread, I can't access your files. So no feedback from me; sorry!)
Much madness is divinest sense, to a discerning eye; much sense, the starkest madness. --Emily Dickinson

Jules Wilkins
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Jules Wilkins » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:53 am

Hello Yucel and Grayson
After noting myself the poor position of my thumb and then having Grayson point it out I set out to correct it. A key reason I am starting at level one is to deal with such basic errors that indeed do impede my ability to actually play a slightly more advanced piece well enough to risk playing it in front of an audience. In your case Yucel (and in my case too when I slip into the very habits I am trying to break) it is causing you to press the strings with the part of your finger that is opposite your nail. I would guess that you are developing calluses somewhat opposite the nail when they should be on the tips of your fingers. I ended up watching a 1 hour lesson on the left hand position which talked largely about a parallel vs a slanted position and advocated the parallel albeit not necessarily ideal for a beginner but definitely something to strive towards. I now start every lesson with the Chromatic scale played with parallel left hand position and as slowly as necessary to ensure every finger hits on the tip just before the fret, that every note rings true, and that there is no buzzing from neighboring strings. Boring as heck but I am slowly teaching my fingers to press properly. When we eventually learn to play slurs (I usually include a few slur exercises in my routine) proper finger position becomes essential. Your fingers are hitting the strings in a weak position which will make hammers and pull offs impossible.The interesting thing is that the thumb seems to take care of itself when I concentrate on the fingers.

I also posted just now a comment on your nails (lesson 3) Yucel. I hope you get a chance to read it.

Thanks again Grayson for pointing this out to me.
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

Yucel Kamcez
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Yucel Kamcez » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:27 am

Hi Jules,

Your comments are so precious and valuable observations for me. Thank you for it. I'll try some exercises like what you mention about it.

I wish you and my class friends happy new year...

With the greatest respects. :)

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James A. Showalter
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by James A. Showalter » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:20 am

In what key is La Cucaracha played?

It's driving me buggy trying to figure it out.

I'm thinking E-minor with G# added as a radical. Of course that could also be G-Major with the same G# added.
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

Jules Wilkins
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Jules Wilkins » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:55 am

James (and anyone else wondering what key La Cucaracha is played in):
Play a CM scale. Note that it is C_D_EF followed by G_A_B_C, in other words, like all major scales it is composed of two groups of equally spaced notes (two full steps followed by a half step), with both groups separated by a full step. Now, take the first note of the second group of this or any other major scale and construct another major scale, and you will find it necessary to add exactly one sharp. This gives us the key of G which is G_A_BC followed by D_E_F#G. All the F's in the GM scale are thus sharpened, and this is the key that La Cucaracha is played in. Continuing, the next key is D (first note of the second grouping) and we get D_E_F#G followed by A_B_C#D. In the key signature you will see the # on the C following in position the # on the F, and so the pattern goes. So OK, we also know that every major scale has a relative minor. The relative minor of CM is Am and the relative minor of GM is Em. It gets a bit more complex as there are three minor scales (natural, harmonic and melodic), but the minor scales have a very different feeling to them and typically add sharps within the body of the music. This piece does add sharps, but it definitely has the feel of a major scale and I don't want to go on in my answer. The key signature tells us it is either GM or Em, and this full bodied piece lacks the mystique of a piece written in a minor scale. The sharpened notes in this piece are hardly unusual, but while they add "interest" they do not affect the overall strong mood of the piece. Hope that helps.
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

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James A. Showalter
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by James A. Showalter » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:16 pm

Thank you Jules. That is a very instructive narrative.

I should have realized it was in GM instead of Em because of the strong presence of the piece. Your explanation is especially meaningful because it instructs on thinking musically. I am a mechanically oriented thinker and musicality for me don't come easy. I appreciate very much your contribution today.

Happy New Years!
James
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

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James A. Showalter
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by James A. Showalter » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:11 pm

Jules,
Your 1st sentence should have read: "C_D_EF followed by G_A_BC".
Now when you read your explanation it fits visually and your logic is more clear.

The permutations:
C_D_EF_G_A_BC
G_A_BC_D_E_F#G
D_E_F#G_A_B_C#D
A_B_C#D_E_F#_G#A
E_F#_G#A_B_C#_D#E
B_C#_D#E_F#_G#_A#B At this point 5 sharps have been added to the natural notes to derive associated scales.
F#_G#_A#B_C#_D#_E#F# Now the progression permutes through augmented note scales.
C#_D#_FF#_G#_A#_B#C#
G#_A#_CC#_D#_F_GG#
D#_F_GG#_A#_C_DD#
A#_C_DD#_F_G_AA#
F_G_ABb_C_D_EF Now back to the natural note scales.
C_D_EF_G_A_BC

Now I understand why it is called the "Circle of 5ths".

First (-1) Class (0) Groups (1) Don't (2) Always (3) Eat (4) Best (5).

Thank you again.
James
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

Jules Wilkins
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Posts: 154
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by Jules Wilkins » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:19 pm

Ha, that will teach me to post things when I should be in bed. Sorry about that mistake in the first sentence and thanks for correcting it. As for your extension let me add two points you may wish to memorize:
1) Fine Classic Guitarists Demand Accurate Execution.
2) Be Ever Alert During Guitar Class.
Contrary to what you must be thinking, I have not strayed from the topic. Look at the first letter of each word in sentence 1 and now look at the order of sharps you added from CM through F#M. You will see that they are the same, and music signatures do not go beyond 6 sharps. What you do instead is work backwards from CM, this time adding flats, starting with Bb (the FM scale) and ending with Cb (the GbM scale) (see sentence 2) for a total of 6 flats. In this way every scale has a single instance of each letter (ABCDEFG) albeit that, with the exception of CM, from one to 6 of those notes being sharp or flat (never a mixture of sharps and flats). This gives a total of (6+6+1=) 13 keys. But wait, there are only 12 notes in the chromatic scale, so how can there be 13 scales?! It is because F#M and GbM are enharmonic scales (the same scale named two different ways). Another word to add to your vocabulary is "tetrachord", which refers to the "half scales" we have been talking about. For example, CDEF is a tetrachord as are GABC and F_G_ABb and so on.

So up to F# your permutations are spot on. The flats will be as follows (note that the flat you just added becomes the next scale in the permutation):
F_G_ABb_C_D_EF
Bb_C_DEb_F_G_ABb
Eb_F_GAb_Bb_C_DEb
Ab_Bb_CDb_Eb_F_GAb
Db_Eb_FGb_Ab_Bb_CDb
Gb_Ab_BbCb_Db_Eb_FGb

Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes this time :D
"We all need people who will give us feedback. That’s how we improve." — Bill Gates
"The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement." — unknown

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James A. Showalter
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Re: D01 Classical guitar lesson 04

Post by James A. Showalter » Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:25 pm

And the circle is complete!
1972 Morris No 12
1972 Ryoji Matsuoka, NO 18
1990 Takamine C132S
2014 Sakurai Kohno Pro-J
Martin Guitars (D28, MC28, D12-28, J40)
National Resonator Guitar
Les Paul 1960 reissue

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