Musician or Player?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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Erik Zurcher
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Erik Zurcher » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:42 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:40 pm
Erik Zurcher wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:34 pm
Rognvald, you never cease to amaze me about your assumptions on how people think.
...I think some members on this Forum have, perhaps, never thought about these ideas since they spend most of their time locked in a practice room...
How do you know that, have you asked them? If not, you don't think, you assume.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik

Hi, Eric,
They are called opinions. They are based, in this case, not on direct personal contact but rather on their words. And if we deny the validity of opinions based on words expressed, we might as well revert to our descent from the trees into the African savannah and disregard the last 2500 years of Philosophy, Literature, Math, Science, and History based on the knowledge gained by reading peoples words ...
The problem with opinions: they are just opinions, wasted words. I can't win an argument with opinions: why would my opinion have more value than yours? Someone said to me once: "don't give me your opinion, show me your plan!"
Opinions are without obligation. I prefer to know facts (before judging), so my opinions become rational arguments.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik
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"While you try to master classical guitar, prepare for a slave's life: the guitar will forever be your master and you its slave".

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lucy
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by lucy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 pm

Erik Zurcher wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:42 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:40 pm
Erik Zurcher wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:34 pm
Rognvald, you never cease to amaze me about your assumptions on how people think.



How do you know that, have you asked them? If not, you don't think, you assume.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik

Hi, Eric,
They are called opinions. They are based, in this case, not on direct personal contact but rather on their words. And if we deny the validity of opinions based on words expressed, we might as well revert to our descent from the trees into the African savannah and disregard the last 2500 years of Philosophy, Literature, Math, Science, and History based on the knowledge gained by reading peoples words ...
The problem with opinions: they are just opinions, wasted words. I can't win an argument with opinions: why would my opinion have more value than yours? Someone said to me once: "don't give me your opinion, show me your plan!"
Opinions are without obligation. I prefer to know facts (before judging), so my opinions become rational arguments.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik
@Eric. "don't give me your opinion, show me your plan!"

Same goes for actually doing things, rather than just talking about them.

Rognvald, I realise you are a good player and I do have a lot of sympathy with your perspective. I really do.

However, the thing is, people come from all sorts of backgrounds and have different life experiences. That affects their perception too, in the same way, your experiences affect you.

It's an old saying that people have to experience something for themselves to truly understand it. Another one is you pass a driving test, but you don't actually learn to drive until after you're out on the road on your own.

Everyone is affected their own personal environment and when they think something, whether it's correct or not, it is true for them.

However, that said, there probably isn't anybody who's view is 100% correct or 100% wrong. It's often the case that there's truth in everyone's perspective.

You could look for the (more subtle) truth in what people say, rather than the (more obvious) divergences from your point of view.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

Rick Hutt
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Rick Hutt » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:18 pm

Actually Zubin Mehta was a trained contrabass player before he began conducting. There is a wonderful recording of Schubert's "Trout Quintet" with him on bass, Daniel Barenboim on piano, Jacqueline Dupree on Cello, and Perlman on vilolin and Zuckerman on viola. Not that this adds anything to this thread.
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janepaints
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by janepaints » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:28 pm

lucy wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:25 pm
How many classical guitarists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One Hundred.

It takes one guitarist to actually screw in the light bulb, and 99 to stand there and say "It wasn't screwed in exactly how it should have been."
you forget the other 500 classical guitarists who debate whether to use a spruce or cedar light bulb.

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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Wuuthrad » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:23 am

Rognvald wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:16 pm
A "Musician" is a performer who has both the practical and theoretical foundations to play a piece of music.
Notice anything here?
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:57 pm
"Is Paul McCartney a musician? I know theorists who answer, 'yes'." J. Scott
Hi, J,
My response is no. He is a professional entertainer
Rognvald, you often profess a certain all encompassing, or perhaps, by your own assertions anyway, some unique and superior knowledge of music, and for that matter many other things, that in all honestly look as though they could have been randomly pulled from a Thesaurus!

My guess is that you may be using, like myself from time to time, Poetic License, where logical discourse might be more appropriate, as would seem given the nature of your questions.

However, I would not want to assume such capabilites, as that might jeopardize our good rapport by being a bit presumptuous. Mightn't it?

I'm asking you seriously as you appear a Master in that regard.

But with all sincerity, if you're going to insist on using Dictionary definitions (to argue without logic,) might I please, to all of our benefits, and hopefully yours (although I'm not entirely sure it's even possible- but one can hope right?) point out the obvious:

The following paragraph, for the most part in its entirety, is completely false!
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:57 pm
who has written/performed some popular "folk music" to great popular acclaim. Although Sir Paul is not quite the ubiquitous three-chord guitarist, he is hardly a master of his instrument. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Interestingly, Paul McCartney borrowed from a Classical Guitar from piece, one which is commonly played worldwide, to influence one of his most famous songs. Not too bad for someone who isn't even a guitar "player!"

Can anyone guess what it is?
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

Wuuthrad
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Wuuthrad » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:55 am

Also, more succinctly (hopefully) to the "point" of this "question."

Is a Musician a Player? Yes

Which begs more questions:

Is a player of an instrument a musician? Yes

Does someone have to play an instrument to be a musician? No

Songwriters, lyricists and composers do not all play musical instruments, and are certainly musicians! Beatboxing is a musical art form using the human voice to mimick percussion instruments. Let's not forget singers, whom need no instrument to perform other than their voice, the original musical instrument.

Some musicians are performers and some chose not to play to entertain.


I have a close family member who is a consummate professional musician and player. Concertmaster, Quarter and Teacher extraordinaire. Did they devote as much time to study theory as they did to practice? Not at all! It's a personal decision and hasn't limited their career in any way whatsoever. If anyone was to suggest that they are not a player or a musician I would laugh, the same as I chuckled a bit to this question, and even more so because of the humourous replies from the OP!

So thanks for that Rognavld! The world needs more laughter and happiness!

Ultimately, I think the difference is that when it comes to playing an instrument, practically speaking (from the listeners' or audiences' perspective,) theoretical knowledge is less important than being able to play well. While the theorists theorize the Musician Plays. Performs even!

Unless we were to discuss Classical Indian Music. Then we'd really have to know some theory!
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

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Michael.N.
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:10 pm

Blackbird.
Historicalguitars.

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Lawler
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Lawler » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Michael.N. wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:10 pm
Blackbird.
The guitar at the beginning of McCartney's Blackbird and Tarrega's Lagrima are very similar. Though in different keys, they have the same upper voice movement for the first three beats (major scale steps 3-4-5) with the lower voice rising through scale steps 1-2-3, and the same rhythmic figure.

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Michael.N.
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:38 pm

Not lagrima. Somewhat earlier. That's if my memory isn't failing me! Doubt I'd have got the connection just by hearing the two.
Historicalguitars.

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lucy
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by lucy » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:47 pm

Michael.N. wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:38 pm
Not lagrima. Somewhat earlier. That's if my memory isn't failing me! Doubt I'd have got the connection just by hearing the two.
Bach Bouree from 1st lute suite. BWV996.

There used to be a video on YouTube with Paul demonstrating the connection to Carlos Bonell. Unfortunately, it seems to have disappeared.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

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