Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

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bear
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by bear » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:39 pm

I've attempted to use a metronome a couple of times and I hate them. I'm not saying they are not useful, they just drive me nuts. When I first learned to play guitar, I would listen to the radio and try to copy them. I was too poor to afford sheet music and learned everything by ear. If, I'd started with a metronome it might be different.
My metronome was Buddy Guy, Chuck Berry, BB King and John Lee Hooker.
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MessyTendon
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by MessyTendon » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:57 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6AlQgq9MRE

This is how I feel...Maybe they aren't so bad, but they certainly don't help anybody learn to play

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andi33x
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by andi33x » Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:30 pm

MessyTendon wrote:I think people who use these tools, no matter how good they are actually start to have side effects. In other words players who use click tracks and metronomes often sound like a smoker of decades who has decided to quit. The affects linger with the player for life.

Please friends, kick the damn habit. Learn how to count with the heart, it will always have an irregular beat but still sound as good as it gets.

The bravado or teachers insisting on learning to count with this garbage kills me.

I never have and never will use a digital dumber device.
I understand your post. I am sure Jazz or fingerstyle or even E-guitar people will be happy without metronome because they train bursts or other fixed hand movements which are not really "metronome" things. But classical technique? I feel wthout a metronome I personally would come nowhere when it comes to a certain level.
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by GenCuster » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:17 pm

Interesting. I've been a drummer for 47 years and I've heard it all and this discussion in many ways mirrors the still common, "to read or not to read," opinions and arguments.

My own experience is I've taken every side of the opinions over the years. I finally came to the understanding that perfect timing is as rare as perfect pitch. Years ago I was challenged with this, "Show me you can play with a metronome and choose not to use one. Show me that for whatever reason you're not hiding from putting in the work needed to use one." I found out I was hiding. It wasn't comfortable to always play with a metronome. If I took the time I could probably write a dissertation on this but it really always boiled down to this, the metronome interfered with bad habits I had picked up. Over time as the use of a metronome corrected my bad habits the less I needed to use or rely on a metronome.

The opinion of robotic playing IMO is a misconception of what playing in time means. In time does not mean always being on top of and nailing the beat. The best example of this I know of is John Bonham of Led Zepplin. A very different style of music from classical guitar but the underlying rules and concepts are the same. They don't change. While playing blues music Bonham would slightly lag or follow the beat. That slight lag was consistent though and it is what gave the music the strong trudging and sorrowful feel. When he played strong, hardcore rock like in the song "Rock and Roll," he plays consistently, slightly ahead of the beat. It creates a feel in the music of the melody trying to catch up. Bonham isn't considered one of the best drummers if not the best rock drummer because of his chops although he had those. It's because of how he could affect the feel of a song by how he played in time.

I believe what Bonham did came naturally to him but that's not true for most of us. We have to learn it and that's done with a metronome. Like everything else though you have to learn to walk before you run. Once the comfort with a metronome comes, then ability to play around the beat comes. Yeah, learning to use a metronome may not lend itself to the best listening experience but I have no doubt that listening to any beginner with any instrument isn't a wonderful listening experience. If a skilled musician sounds robotic it's not because of a metronome, it's by choice, or the skill isn't as developed as believed or hoped.

We all know what is said about opinions and this is just mine.

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acmost9
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by acmost9 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:23 pm

bear wrote: My metronome was Buddy Guy, Chuck Berry, BB King and John Lee Hooker.

They all rushed.

I kid, I kid.

celestemcc
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by celestemcc » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:44 pm

Well said, GenCuster!
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Steve Kutzer
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by Steve Kutzer » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:17 pm

I use a metronome in 10 or 15% of my practice. One thing I find helpful and challenging is to play a sound every 4 or 8 beats. That allows some rubato expression while still maintaining overall rhythm discipline. And carrying the beat internally during those metronome-silent beats is a good way to internalize and not develop a crutch.
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by CathyCate » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:51 am

Just for fun check out Baden Powell's recording of his Choro para Metronomo. The playing on the the beat mixed in with the playful give and take, push and pull changups sometimes measure to measure are thrilling. No restrictions. No limits. He is in complete control...as the beat goes on. I say Yes!
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by RoryJohn » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:56 am

MessyTendon wrote: This is how I feel...Maybe they aren't so bad, but they certainly don't help anybody learn to play
There's no polite way to say this but in this instance you're 100% wrong.
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by mc1 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:01 pm

CathyCate wrote:Just for fun check out Baden Powell's recording of his Choro para Metronomo. The playing on the the beat mixed in with the playful give and take, push and pull changups sometimes measure to measure are thrilling. No restrictions. No limits. He is in complete control...as the beat goes on. I say Yes!
wow, thanks, that was great.

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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by MessyTendon » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:34 pm

Imperfection makes music...I feel these devices used to help timing, actually compromise the ability to sing. It's sort of like singers using autotune...to what degree does perfection become music?

I prefer an organic sound to things. Being in time with a machine or being in time with a group? Bonham was a lousy drummer, Keith Moon was a lousy drummer, but by not being on time with beats, the sound of the band really become more organic and less homogenized. Now Ginger Baker theres a drummer

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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by celestemcc » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:45 pm

Metronomes are very difficult to use for some folks, but with a bit of practice you get used to it. They don't make you play better: they make you practice better. (In order to play better...!)
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by randalljazz » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:22 pm

never mind...wasted words.
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Andrew Fryer
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by Andrew Fryer » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:28 pm

In the land of the self-taught guitarists, the man with tinnitus in one ear is king.
Last edited by Andrew Fryer on Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Metronomes, Click Tracks just say no

Post by mmapag » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:52 pm

RoryJohn wrote:
MessyTendon wrote: This is how I feel...Maybe they aren't so bad, but they certainly don't help anybody learn to play
There's no polite way to say this but in this instance you're 100% wrong.
+1
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