driverless cars

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Tue May 07, 2019 4:19 pm

We'll see if autonomous vehicles are safer than human-directed ones.

PeteJ
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Re: driverless cars

Post by PeteJ » Tue May 07, 2019 5:25 pm

Improvements in road safety may be possible and would be welcome, but the technology has such a vast impact that there may be fifty other effects to take into account.

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eno
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Re: driverless cars

Post by eno » Tue May 07, 2019 5:46 pm

Imagine there would be no aircrafts in our days and then a tech sector would announce their advances on the aircraft technology. And now imagine how much skepticism, criticism, fears and worries that would raise? Yet billions of people have accepted and are using the aircraft technology nowadays all over the world. It's understandable that there is always a skepticism and resistance to new technologies (and there should be for good reasons!) but once a technology is proven safe and useful and people get used to it then it usually gets public acceptance. That happened many times in the history. But it also happened that many technologies failed and were rejected by the society. Only time will tell.
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guitarrista
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Re: driverless cars

Post by guitarrista » Tue May 07, 2019 6:31 pm

eno wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:46 pm
Imagine there would be no aircrafts in our days and then a tech sector would announce their advances on the aircraft technology. And now imagine how much skepticism, criticism, fears and worries that would raise?
Or more fairly, how about we imagine that there are human-piloted aircrafts, and then the tech sector announces pilot-less aircraft technology. Then the Boeing 737 Max8 things happens where the machine crashes the aircraft even with pilots still present :? And now imagine how much skepticism, criticism, fears and worries that would raise? The fools.
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eno
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Re: driverless cars

Post by eno » Tue May 07, 2019 7:13 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:31 pm
Or more fairly, how about we imagine that there are human-piloted aircrafts, and then the tech sector announces pilot-less aircraft technology. Then the Boeing 737 Max8 things happens where the machine crashes the aircraft even with pilots still present :? And now imagine how much skepticism, criticism, fears and worries that would raise? The fools.
Car and aircraft crashes will always happen both with human and machine AI driving (when the latter becomes available and mature enough). The question is purely statistical - how more or less often the former case will happen compared to the latter. This will be the ultimate safety test, but even if AI fails to provide safer driving in 10 or 30 yrs it still may be able to do it in 50 or 100 yrs, it's just a question of time. There is no such statistical data at this moment so all our arguments are groundless so far. But for anyone familiar with AI technology there is little doubt that in a foreseeable future AI should be able to navigate and drive vehicles better and safer than humans. As opposed to doing creative kind of work like composing or playing music for example, so no worries here for us, good composers and music players will never be outperformed by machines in any foreseeable future (but bad ones like me very well might be) :D
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guitarrista
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Re: driverless cars

Post by guitarrista » Wed May 08, 2019 12:15 am

heh.. in 100 years.
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PeteJ
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Re: driverless cars

Post by PeteJ » Wed May 08, 2019 1:15 pm

eno wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:46 pm
Imagine there would be no aircrafts in our days and then a tech sector would announce their advances on the aircraft technology. And now imagine how much skepticism, criticism, fears and worries that would raise? Yet billions of people have accepted and are using the aircraft technology nowadays all over the world. It's understandable that there is always a skepticism and resistance to new technologies (and there should be for good reasons!) but once a technology is proven safe and useful and people get used to it then it usually gets public acceptance. That happened many times in the history. But it also happened that many technologies failed and were rejected by the society. Only time will tell.
You make the case very well. Aircraft technology is one of the biggest environmental problems and measures are being taken to curb flying as we speak, It's no use arguing that a technology is good as long as it is popular and makes money. We've been taking this approach from the start and this is why our natural environment is collapsing.

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Re: driverless cars

Post by Andrew Pohlman » Wed May 08, 2019 6:11 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:15 pm
eno wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:46 pm
Imagine there would be no aircrafts in our days and then a tech sector would announce their advances on the aircraft technology. And now imagine how much skepticism, criticism, fears and worries that would raise? Yet billions of people have accepted and are using the aircraft technology nowadays all over the world. It's understandable that there is always a skepticism and resistance to new technologies (and there should be for good reasons!) but once a technology is proven safe and useful and people get used to it then it usually gets public acceptance. That happened many times in the history. But it also happened that many technologies failed and were rejected by the society. Only time will tell.
You make the case very well. Aircraft technology is one of the biggest environmental problems and measures are being taken to curb flying as we speak, It's no use arguing that a technology is good as long as it is popular and makes money. We've been taking this approach from the start and this is why our natural environment is collapsing.
This is quite true. Gasoline powered cars use only 1 ecologically destructive fuel source. Electrics can be charged from a variety of sources using a diverse, and hopefully more ecological, energy sources. Self driving cars step up the game because they can drop you off, and go find a renewable energy charging station, then pick you up with a full charge.

From an infrastructure perspective, if cars drive themselves to charging stations, you no longer need charging stations at the work place, which is wonderful for more urban and high density locations. This also extends the maximum commute distance due to having a full charge in both commute directions.

It's all cool stuff to my way of thinking.
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eno
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Re: driverless cars

Post by eno » Wed May 08, 2019 6:44 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:15 pm
You make the case very well. Aircraft technology is one of the biggest environmental problems and measures are being taken to curb flying as we speak, It's no use arguing that a technology is good as long as it is popular and makes money. We've been taking this approach from the start and this is why our natural environment is collapsing.
Enviromnental polluiton is a separate problem from driverless cars, but as Andrew pointed out, they may also reduce pollutioin depending on how they are impemented. On a large scale aircrafts are still polluiting less per person (if you compare the amount of gasilone burnt per person between one aircraft fly with a few hundred people on board and each person driving individually by car over the same distance). But in general the solution to pollution has nothing to do with driverless cars, it requires a different approach, including legislative. Take Amstterdam as an example:

"Gasoline and diesel fueled cars and motorcycles will be banned from Amsterdam from 2030 in an effort to clean up the city’s air, the Dutch capital’s council said on Thursday. Amsterdam said it aims to replace all gasoline and diesel engines by emission-free alternatives, such as electric and hydrogen cars, by the end of the next decade."
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Pat Dodson
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed May 08, 2019 6:53 pm

Just wondering; if self-drive cars can take themselves off for a recharge, service, wash or valet, to collect the groceries or attend a rally then would they really need passengers? :wink:

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed May 08, 2019 7:01 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:53 pm
Just wondering; if self-drive cars can take themselves off for a recharge, service, wash or valet, to collect the groceries or attend a rally then would they really need passengers? :wink:
Indeed, the same has occurred to me. What's this driving all over the place about anyway?

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Re: driverless cars

Post by Luis_Br » Wed May 08, 2019 7:50 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 4:19 pm
We'll see if autonomous vehicles are safer than human-directed ones.
Just passing by here. I actually work with process automation. Autonomous car is doable as safe, airplanes already land autonomously, IMO it is much more complex. I've heard that one of the last airplane accidents here happened because the pilot interfered and made a mistake. If he would let the autopilot, it wouldn't happen.
Problem is always cost, like quality of sensors, maintenance etc. and amount of redundancy to assure security. Autonomous cars must be cheap.
Anyways, if autonomous vehicle is not safer, the problem will also be with humans. The problem will only change from driver to the designer or maybe the mounting/maintenance guys.
I agree the whole concept of car and transport should change. I think better logistics so people don't need to have their own cars is more important.

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tuk
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Re: driverless cars

Post by tuk » Wed May 08, 2019 8:28 pm

Driverless cars are just the tip of the AI iceberg.

AI is going to be a huge problem for humans.
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Pat Dodson
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed May 08, 2019 8:44 pm

tuk wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:28 pm
Driverless cars are just the tip of the AI iceberg.

AI is going to be a huge problem for humans.
I fancy humans are going to be a big problem for AI. Foolproof hey? We’ll see about that... :wink:

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed May 08, 2019 8:45 pm

Luis_Br wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:50 pm
airplanes already land autonomously, IMO it is much more complex.
Than cars? Surely not. An airplane moves through the air on a planned trajectory with nothing that can strike it near it, and lands on a fixed target. A car is subject to a million unpredictable events on the road. Logic would dictate that the car faces many many times the complexity in terms of events than an airplane.

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