Musician or Player?

[Erik Zurcher]

Rognvald, you never cease to amaze me about your assumptions on how people think.

...I think some members on this Forum have, perhaps, never thought about these ideas since they spend most of their time locked in a practice room...

How do you know that, have you asked them? If not, you don't think, you assume.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik

Hi, Eric,
They are called opinions. They are based, in this case, not on direct personal contact but rather on their words. And if we deny the validity of opinions based on words expressed, we might as well revert to our descent from the trees into the African savannah and disregard the last 2500 years of Philosophy, Literature, Math, Science, and History based on the knowledge gained by reading peoples words ...

The problem with opinions: they are just opinions, wasted words. I can't win an argument with opinions: why would my opinion have more value than yours? Someone said to me once: "don't give me your opinion, show me your plan!"
Opinions are without obligation. I prefer to know facts (before judging), so my opinions become rational arguments.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik

[lucy]

Rognvald, you never cease to amaze me about your assumptions on how people think.



How do you know that, have you asked them? If not, you don't think, you assume.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik

Hi, Eric,
They are called opinions. They are based, in this case, not on direct personal contact but rather on their words. And if we deny the validity of opinions based on words expressed, we might as well revert to our descent from the trees into the African savannah and disregard the last 2500 years of Philosophy, Literature, Math, Science, and History based on the knowledge gained by reading peoples words ...

The problem with opinions: they are just opinions, wasted words. I can't win an argument with opinions: why would my opinion have more value than yours? Someone said to me once: "don't give me your opinion, show me your plan!"
Opinions are without obligation. I prefer to know facts (before judging), so my opinions become rational arguments.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik

@Eric. "don't give me your opinion, show me your plan!"

Same goes for actually doing things, rather than just talking about them.

Rognvald, I realise you are a good player and I do have a lot of sympathy with your perspective. I really do.

However, the thing is, people come from all sorts of backgrounds and have different life experiences. That affects their perception too, in the same way, your experiences affect you.

It's an old saying that people have to experience something for themselves to truly understand it. Another one is you pass a driving test, but you don't actually learn to drive until after you're out on the road on your own.

Everyone is affected their own personal environment and when they think something, whether it's correct or not, it is true for them.

However, that said, there probably isn't anybody who's view is 100% correct or 100% wrong. It's often the case that there's truth in everyone's perspective.

You could look for the (more subtle) truth in what people say, rather than the (more obvious) divergences from your point of view.

[Rick Hutt]

Actually Zubin Mehta was a trained contrabass player before he began conducting. There is a wonderful recording of Schubert's "Trout Quintet" with him on bass, Daniel Barenboim on piano, Jacqueline Dupree on Cello, and Perlman on vilolin and Zuckerman on viola. Not that this adds anything to this thread.

[janepaints]

How many classical guitarists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One Hundred.

It takes one guitarist to actually screw in the light bulb, and 99 to stand there and say "It wasn't screwed in exactly how it should have been."

you forget the other 500 classical guitarists who debate whether to use a spruce or cedar light bulb.

[Wuuthrad]

A "Musician" is a performer who has both the practical and theoretical foundations to play a piece of music.

Notice anything here?

"Is Paul McCartney a musician? I know theorists who answer, 'yes'." J. Scott
Hi, J,
My response is no. He is a professional entertainer

Rognvald, you often profess a certain all encompassing, or perhaps, by your own assertions anyway, some unique and superior knowledge of music, and for that matter many other things, that in all honestly look as though they could have been randomly pulled from a Thesaurus!

My guess is that you may be using, like myself from time to time, Poetic License, where logical discourse might be more appropriate, as would seem given the nature of your questions.

However, I would not want to assume such capabilites, as that might jeopardize our good rapport by being a bit presumptuous. Mightn't it?

I'm asking you seriously as you appear a Master in that regard.

But with all sincerity, if you're going to insist on using Dictionary definitions (to argue without logic,) might I please, to all of our benefits, and hopefully yours (although I'm not entirely sure it's even possible- but one can hope right?) point out the obvious:

The following paragraph, for the most part in its entirety, is completely false!

who has written/performed some popular "folk music" to great popular acclaim. Although Sir Paul is not quite the ubiquitous three-chord guitarist, he is hardly a master of his instrument. Playing again . . . Rognvald

Interestingly, Paul McCartney borrowed from a Classical Guitar from piece, one which is commonly played worldwide, to influence one of his most famous songs. Not too bad for someone who isn't even a guitar "player!"

Can anyone guess what it is?

[Wuuthrad]

Also, more succinctly (hopefully) to the "point" of this "question."

Is a Musician a Player? Yes

Which begs more questions:

Is a player of an instrument a musician? Yes

Does someone have to play an instrument to be a musician? No

Songwriters, lyricists and composers do not all play musical instruments, and are certainly musicians! Beatboxing is a musical art form using the human voice to mimick percussion instruments. Let's not forget singers, whom need no instrument to perform other than their voice, the original musical instrument.

Some musicians are performers and some chose not to play to entertain.


I have a close family member who is a consummate professional musician and player. Concertmaster, Quarter and Teacher extraordinaire. Did they devote as much time to study theory as they did to practice? Not at all! It's a personal decision and hasn't limited their career in any way whatsoever. If anyone was to suggest that they are not a player or a musician I would laugh, the same as I chuckled a bit to this question, and even more so because of the humourous replies from the OP!

So thanks for that Rognavld! The world needs more laughter and happiness!

Ultimately, I think the difference is that when it comes to playing an instrument, practically speaking (from the listeners' or audiences' perspective,) theoretical knowledge is less important than being able to play well. While the theorists theorize the Musician Plays. Performs even!

Unless we were to discuss Classical Indian Music. Then we'd really have to know some theory!

[Michael.N.]

Blackbird.

[Lawler]

Blackbird.

The guitar at the beginning of McCartney's Blackbird and Tarrega's Lagrima are very similar. Though in different keys, they have the same upper voice movement for the first three beats (major scale steps 3-4-5) with the lower voice rising through scale steps 1-2-3, and the same rhythmic figure.

[Michael.N.]

Not lagrima. Somewhat earlier. That's if my memory isn't failing me! Doubt I'd have got the connection just by hearing the two.

[lucy]

Not lagrima. Somewhat earlier. That's if my memory isn't failing me! Doubt I'd have got the connection just by hearing the two.

Bach Bouree from 1st lute suite. BWV996.

There used to be a video on YouTube with Paul demonstrating the connection to Carlos Bonell. Unfortunately, it seems to have disappeared.

[Lawler]

Bach Bouree from 1st lute suite. BWV996.

There used to be a video on YouTube with Paul demonstrating the connection to Carlos Bonell. Unfortunately, it seems to have disappeared.

Yep, it's the E minor Bouree. I know the vid you mean, Lucy. I just found another vid where Paul talks about the same subject in a similar way. Rules and all... can't post the link but search YT for "Paul McCartney: Chaos and Creation At Abbey Road JimmyMcCullochFan". Watch at 38:35. Great stuff.

[60moo]

"Is Paul McCartney a musician? I know theorists who answer, 'yes'." J. Scott

Hi, J,
My response is no. He is a [1] professional entertainer who has written/performed [2] some popular "folk music" to [3] great popular acclaim. Although Sir Paul is not quite the ubiquitous three-chord guitarist, he is [4] hardly a master of his instrument. Playing again . . . Rognvald

[1] You've got it back to front. Paul McCartney is a musician who loves performing, not an entertainer who loves writing / performing.
[2] 'Some' is an incredible understatement. Most songwriters would give their right arm to have 1/5th the popularity he's achieved just with his Beatles songbook.
[3] Great critical acclaim - which is why much of his music is going to last for centuries, perhaps millennia, perhaps longer.
[4] Listen to his bass lines in his greatest works. If you're not impressed, then there's no use debating.

Granted, McCartney wasn't trained in theory, and he isn't a purist. But musical intuition and creativity are what lie behind his greatness.

[Michael.N.]

Followed not long after by the Jethro Tull version. Bouree was very influential in the late 60's no doubt partly because of the early music revival.

[Rognvald]

After some wonderful time spent sailing at sea, I'm back again and want to thank everyone for their responses--both positive and negative. These discussions are not meant to etch in granite musical terms or concepts but, perhaps, to challenge us to think about what terms in our musical world might, could, should mean. Too often, we become so entrenched in our world of scales, arpeggios, chords, and melodies that, I believe, we lose sight that what we do is creative expression and for creative expression to occur when we play . . . it cannot emanate from an unthinking, unfeeling robot that exists in a void and has no ideas or opinions. Sadly today, in my opinion, terms like "artist," "musician," and "creative" are thrown about by people referring to those who are not the best and brightest of our generation but rather those who appeal to the uncritical common masses. We see it in some of the examples of actors and musicians I mentioned earlier and I believe this dichotomy could not have been more clearly stated. So, when we use terms like "musician" or "player," they should, for most of us, have some real distinction rather than being a definition which is hazy, blurred or nonexistent. We all come to the table with different goals for our musical journeys and I have not in any way discredited any of these avenues but have rather sought to define for the more serious-minded among us the concept of artistic creation and what it is to be a "musician." Music is a lifelong journey where we continue to hone our "art" and even such luminaries as Segovia and Bream have stated that when their mechanical skills were in decline, their artistic vision and understanding of Music was the greatest. In my world, there is a clear distinction between the terms "musician" and "player." Perhaps, some on this Forum have a clearer understanding based on this discussion... and, then again, perhaps not. Playing again . . . Rognvald

[Rognvald]

Collins English dictionary defines a musician as: "A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument as their job or hobby." Merriam Webster defines a musician as ": a composer, conductor, or performer of music." Dictionary.com defines a musician as: "a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music or any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music." I guess anyone who has an instrument and plays it is a musician. This is certainly a major revelation in my life. Let me see . . . Billy Rae Cyrus is a musician . . . Vladimir Horwitz is a musician. . . Paul(I should get off the stage at 73) McCartney is also a musician . . . the grunge rock band down the street who vamp on one chord for hours on end(I am of course taking liberties with the term "chord") at mind-numbing decibels and play to an appreciative, equally mind-numbed audience . . . are all musicians. I can assure you . . . my life has experienced a major revelation . . . .Ave Verum Corpus . . . Rognvald