The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

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Rasqeo
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am

bodhisattva wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:48 pm
Lovemyguitar wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:13 am
What does remind me of kindergarten (at least, prior to anti-bullying laws) is to post a video of someone specifically to make fun of it, essentially declaring, "OMG, isn't this the worst thing you've ever seen?", and then have others join in to jeer at it.
Please remember that:
1/ Eliot Fisk is NOT "someone" ordinary living around your neighbourhood.
2/ Eliot Fisk is an international public figure in music who is paid to perform in front of public and who is subject to public praise as well as public criticism.
3/ His "Chaconne" video clip is NOT posted on Youtube by me.
4/ His "Chaconne" video clip is posted on Youtube by GuitarArtFestival (International Guitar Festival) in Belfast (Serbia) which is the international organization that has paid for Fisk's performance.
5/ My opinion about his "Chaconne" performance in that particular video clip is just one of many opinions expressed by the public.
6/ If you want to defend his "Chaconne" performance, please use your best musical knowledge to point out for people to see what is really good about it. Thank you.
Why the need to explain yourself? You posted in order to stir up a reaction because you know Fisk attracts controversy. Why not just admit it?

chiral3
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by chiral3 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:28 am

I'll give bodhi the benefit of the doubt - he joined two months ago. How is he (or she) supposed to know that this inane discussion re fisk has happened a dozen times in the last decade on this forum?
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bodhisattva
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by bodhisattva » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:24 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am
Why the need to explain yourself? You posted in order to stir up a reaction because you know Fisk attracts controversy. Why not just admit it?
1/ If somebody does not understand the matter, I need to explain it.
2/ I didn't post to stir up a reaction, because I could not imagine that it would stir up any reaction. I thought that everybody would agree with me that such a "Chaconne" performance was obviously disastrous, and that everybody would together analyze that performance to find what one could learn from it (eg. avoiding unreasonable speed-up, controlling dynamics and tone, etc.)
3/ I didn't know that my criticism would cause controversy.
4/ You ask me: "Why not just admit it?". I really don't understand what you mean. Have I committed any sin when I criticized such a performance? Must I admit that I was sinful when I dared to criticize a star? Must I try to avoid mentioning Fisk in any comment? Or must I always praise him so that I would not be sinful?

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Dave
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Dave » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:56 pm

bodhisattva wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:31 am

2/ I didn't post to stir up a reaction, because I could not imagine that it would stir up any reaction. I thought that everybody would agree with me that such a "Chaconne" performance was obviously disastrous, and that everybody would together analyze that performance to find what one could learn from it (eg. avoiding unreasonable speed-up, controlling dynamics and tone, etc.)
Hm, the comment in your original post suggests otherwise:
bodhisattva wrote:
I think this is the most disastrous "Chaconne" performance I've ever seen. Perhaps he wants to be remembered as the cruellest assassinator of J.S. Bach.
You didn't mention anything about analysis, or constructive critisism. Just a snide comment. Kind of trollish actually.
Dave

ddray
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by ddray » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:04 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:43 am
...

Why the need to explain yourself? You posted in order to stir up a reaction because you know Fisk attracts controversy. Why not just admit it?
Well maybe, but that's why most people post on most topics. I don't understand the defensiveness. Fisk is a well-known guitarist and I think his overall reputation and accomplishments will withstand some web-forum criticism. (If you think this is bad, read some of the comments on his YT videos.) Some love him, some don't; some are neutral. I like a lot of Fisk's earlier Scarlatti interpretations. I don't like his recent Bach performances. And honestly, I haven't heard many performances of Bach's Chaconne on guitar that I'm very fond of anyway. That's a piece that I don't think translates very well. Piano versions are even worse IMO, even the one by Brahms.

Chuah Hui Hsien
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Chuah Hui Hsien » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:17 pm

Freedom of expression should practice with wisdom of humility.

We may have good intention, but the words we choose to highlight the message can be inappropriate at times. Words like "disastrous", "torture" are detrimental in certain degree. We should cultivate mindful and sensible attitude in posting our comments at the forum for the benefits of everyone, our words carry weight.
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ghenson
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by ghenson » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:37 pm

If you listen from a broader viewpoint and not on the details, I think you will get a sense of the beauty of this interpretation. I think he is much more concerned with bringing the larger structure together, which is the biggest challenge for concert artists.

Playing the notes is the easy part.

bodhisattva
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by bodhisattva » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:41 pm

Dave wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:56 pm
You didn't mention anything about analysis, or constructive critisism. Just a snide comment. Kind of trollish actually.
That was just the first comment and I said that the performance was disastrous. Later on, I began to explain why it was disastrous: "This performance contains so many broken notes, deaf notes, blurred notes and wrong notes (not to mention so many problems in tempo, phrasing, tone color, dynamics, etc...)"

bodhisattva
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by bodhisattva » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:45 pm

ghenson wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:37 pm
Playing the notes is the easy part.
Of course, but how about playing so many broken notes, blurred notes, deaf notes, inaccurate notes...? Is it a special art?

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Justfun
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Justfun » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:43 pm

In my humble opinion, I think Fisk has all the tools to make the Chaconna sound beautiful but this is his style of playing the guitar. I've seen him in a concert once during the late 90's and after the intermission I never returned to the recital.
Last edited by Justfun on Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ghenson
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by ghenson » Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:56 pm

bodhisattva wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:45 pm
ghenson wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:37 pm
Playing the notes is the easy part.
Of course, but how about playing so many broken notes, blurred notes, deaf notes, inaccurate notes...? Is it a special art?
Just mistakes. His practice was probably not up to par or there was something else going on.

Rasqeo
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:01 pm

bodhisattva wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:41 pm
Dave wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:56 pm
You didn't mention anything about analysis, or constructive critisism. Just a snide comment. Kind of trollish actually.
That was just the first comment and I said that the performance was disastrous. Later on, I began to explain why it was disastrous: "This performance contains so many broken notes, deaf notes, blurred notes and wrong notes (not to mention so many problems in tempo, phrasing, tone color, dynamics, etc...)"
The performance doesn’t contain nearly as many mistakes as you’re implying here. What precisely is the difference between a broken, deaf or blurred note? Sounds like you’re trying to say the same thing three times. There are only a couple of places where the mistakes are really noticeable but so what? They don’t detract from the overall performance. Not so long ago I saw a well-known rising star of the guitar who receives almost universal praise play the piece in concert and made a mistake that nearly brought it to an abrupt end and was only recovered after a few stumbling bars. No-one batted so much of an eyelid nor did they mention it afterwards. It didn’t ruin the performance but it was very noticeable.

The “problems” in tempo, dynamics etc you mention are only problems in your opinion based on how you think the Chaconne should be played. Do you know how Bach intended the piece to be played? If so, please enlighten us. I consider myself an experienced player but I’m far from an expert and I wouldn’t have the arrogance to believe I know better than someone like Fisk how the piece should be played, even if the performance isn’t to my taste. What exactly are your credentials that you think yourself worthy to deem the performance “disastrous”?

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John Oster
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by John Oster » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:10 pm

This horse has completely decomposed. Why are we still beating it?
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Justfun
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Justfun » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:12 pm

reserved
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bodhisattva
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by bodhisattva » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:36 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:01 pm
What exactly are your credentials that you think yourself worthy to deem the performance “disastrous”?
It's very funny. A boy saw a king who was naked. The boy said aloud: "Look! The king is naked!"
An officer immediately said to the boy: "Shut up your blasphemous mouth! What exactly are your credentials that you think yourself worthy to say that the king is naked?"

However, I am no more a boy, and, speaking about music, fortunately I have some knowledge. I am an academic in musicology and composition and has been teaching in colleges for nearly thirty years. I don't know if it can be qualified as my "credentials" according to your standards.

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