Titanium trebles

Choice of classical guitar strings and technical issues connected with their use.
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guitarrista
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by guitarrista » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:04 pm

pogmoor wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:55 am
Ramon Amira wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:55 pm
These Genius Titanium Galli Classical Guitar Strings are composed of a revolutionary new titanium-nylon polymer.
[quoting SBM or Galli]

I think I might start making a small collection of the nonsense written about guitar strings by advertisers. Perhaps someone would like to explain to me how titanium could be polymerised with nylon?
Even better, I found on another website (a reputable German seller of musical supplies):
The standard material used for plain classical guitar strings (E, B and usually G) is solid, round-section nylon.This is usually transparent, but some manufacturers offer ‘carbon’ plain strings - these are made from nylon with a small percentage of carbon, which results in a solid black colour and a more percussive, overtone-rich sound.
You are right to question the advertising claims and bombastic naming, but that excerpt is nonsense. Nylon string + dye is what makes for coloured (usually black) strings - not adding "carbon". Separately, the so called "carbon" strings are actually made from a fluoropolymer - "a fluorocarbon-based polymer with multiple strong carbon–fluorine bonds". The one widely used is vinylidene fluoride. I guess the marketing people shortened fluorocarbon to carbon. Of course, this is not how chemistry works, but is apparently how marketing works..

As far as "titanium" strings - you will be surprised to hear that there is no actual titanium in them :-) - neither in the trebles nor in the wound basses. The trebles are apparently some mixture of fluorocarbon and nylon and possibly some dye - it is the colouring that "titanium" is supposedly referring to.

BTW nylon is actually polyamide (PA). There are 2-3 types of PA used for nylon strings. So mixing zero or more of these with zero or more of the fluorocarbons gives manufacturers enough variety of resulting properties to make various claims about sound qualities of classical strings, I guess.

Kurt Penner wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:53 pm
ameriken, I was referring to the latter, that is, the open string would sharpen as it would warm up with playing; then I would need to retune. The intonation was unaffected as I recall. I bought about 6 sets of EJ45TT (I think) and after about 3-4 sets I realized this tendency would drive me nuts. Pity, I liked the sound.
KP
This however is a global property of nylon in nylon strings - they go sharp as they warm up because the structure of the bonds is such that the string expands radially when it warms up - so it is pulling itself getting slightly thicker - which makes for increased tension - which makes for a sharpening of the pitch.
Last edited by guitarrista on Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:17 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Ramon Amira » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:05 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:04 pm

As far as "titanium" strings - you will be surprised to hear that there is no actual titanium in them :-) - neither in the trebles nor in the wound basses. The trebles are apparently some mixture of fluorocarbon and nylon and possibly some dye - it is the colouring that "titanium" is referring to.
Why should "titanium" refer to the color, or why should the color be called titanium? Other companies are making "Titanium" trebles of all different colors. I don't understand what you mean.

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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by guitarrista » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:17 pm

Ramon Amira wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:05 pm

Why should "titanium" refer to the color, or why should the color be called titanium? Other companies are making "Titanium" trebles of all different colors. I don't understand what you mean.

Ramon
I am not sure marketing is very logical.
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David Norton
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by David Norton » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:26 pm

Titanio, Titanium, Titanic. Nope, too close a connection for my comfort!

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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by guitarrista » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:04 pm

David Norton wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:26 pm
Titanio, Titanium, Titanic. Nope, too close a connection for my comfort!


titanic.png
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Nicostratus » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:10 am

Thanks Guitarrista for the detailed account of these guitar strings. I wish that this information was commonly provided on the websites of the manufacturers.

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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by ameriken » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:58 pm

Kurt Penner wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:53 pm
ameriken, I was referring to the latter, that is, the open string would sharpen as it would warm up with playing; then I would need to retune. The intonation was unaffected as I recall. I bought about 6 sets of EJ45TT (I think) and after about 3-4 sets I realized this tendency would drive me nuts. Pity, I liked the sound.

KP
I'm finding these (45TT's) to be quite a nice set. Warm basses, and sweet trebles. If anything, I'd personally like to see the trebles just a wee bit brighter. I might give the 46's a try.

However I have not had any issues with them going sharp after I start playing. The only thing I don't like about them is a bit of a tubby g string.
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by ronjazz » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:16 am

I have found over the years that ALL nylon strings go sharp as the instrument is warmed by the body in the first few minutes. After all, the heat expands the wood, making the guitar larger, and tightening the strings. Somehow the basses are less affected than the trebles, but it happens to me every day, no matter what brand or type, from nylon to carbon to titanium.
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Francisco » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:39 pm

I had been using Galli carbon trebles on my guitar but recently changed to titanium for the 1st and 2nd strings because the carbons tended to develop intonation problems after awhile, especially the B string. I still use carbon for the G string.

I am very happy with the sound, which I find sweeter than the carbons, not so bright and loud as the carbons, but still loud enough. My daughter has been using titanium trebles on her guitar for a couple of years.
I also find that these Galli trebles (both titanium and carbon) make considerably less of that scratchy noise, not just from the nails, but from the flesh as well, than regular nylons, and that is the main reason I started using them.
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Flapjack » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:32 pm

ronjazz wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:16 am
I have found over the years that ALL nylon strings go sharp as the instrument is warmed by the body in the first few minutes. After all, the heat expands the wood, making the guitar larger, and tightening the strings. Somehow the basses are less affected than the trebles, but it happens to me every day, no matter what brand or type, from nylon to carbon to titanium.
I thought that classical guitars went sharp while playing them due to the warming/expansion of the nylon strings caused by hand contact. I find it hard to believe that the guitar itself expands appeciably as one plays it. If this were the case, steel string guitars, violins, and some other instruments would go sharp when played.

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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by astro64 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:48 pm

Flapjack wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:32 pm
ronjazz wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:16 am
I have found over the years that ALL nylon strings go sharp as the instrument is warmed by the body in the first few minutes. After all, the heat expands the wood, making the guitar larger, and tightening the strings. Somehow the basses are less affected than the trebles, but it happens to me every day, no matter what brand or type, from nylon to carbon to titanium.
I thought that classical guitars went sharp while playing them due to the warming/expansion of the nylon strings caused by hand contact. I find it hard to believe that the guitar itself expands appeciably as one plays it. If this were the case, steel string guitars, violins, and some other instruments would go sharp when played.
That is correct, the strings tighten with temperature, the wood expansion would be minuscule.

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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:36 pm

astro64 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:48 pm
Flapjack wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:32 pm
ronjazz wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:16 am
I have found over the years that ALL nylon strings go sharp as the instrument is warmed by the body in the first few minutes. After all, the heat expands the wood, making the guitar larger, and tightening the strings. Somehow the basses are less affected than the trebles, but it happens to me every day, no matter what brand or type, from nylon to carbon to titanium.
I thought that classical guitars went sharp while playing them due to the warming/expansion of the nylon strings caused by hand contact. I find it hard to believe that the guitar itself expands appeciably as one plays it. If this were the case, steel string guitars, violins, and some other instruments would go sharp when played.
That is correct, the strings tighten with temperature, the wood expansion would be minuscule.
I agree, I don't think that the guitar changes, outside of the seasonal changes that cause the neck to move some, and is only really appreciated if you take measurements. It isn't that much at all, but may be enough to make you want to adjust the truss rod if the guitar has one. If you had a neck that was moving around so much that every time you held the guitar, it goes out of tune, we wouldn't be able to play them. I think its just the strings. And it seems to happen less with carbon strings vs. Nylon.

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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Francisco » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:51 am

I find it a bit counterintuitive how the expansion of a string (lengthwise) could tighten it. If the string becomes longer because of an increase in temperature, and if the distance between saddle and nut remains the same, then the tension of the string should diminish, it seems to me.
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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Flapjack » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:36 am

Francisco wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:51 am
I find it a bit counterintuitive how the expansion of a string (lengthwise) could tighten it. If the string becomes longer because of an increase in temperature, and if the distance between saddle and nut remains the same, then the tension of the string should diminish, it seems to me.
If you follow this link and read grwagner's post, you will get a thorough explanation.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=54341&start=15#p593985

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Re: Titanium trebles

Post by Francisco » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:22 pm

Thank you. It looks like it is a pretty complicated topic, but it does confirm my impression than lengthwise thermal expansion of a string would logically reduce its tension (everything else remaining equal). But everything else does not remain equal, and many other factors are involved, including transformations back and forth between amorphous and crystaline states at the manufacturing stage. Things usually shrink as temperature is reduced, but if the temperature is reduced to the point where it induces cyristalization, as happens when water turns to ice, then they suddenly expand as they need more room to arrange their molecules in an orderly pattern.
Fascinating explanation, even if I understand only bits and pieces of it.
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