5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Choice of classical guitar strings and technical issues connected with their use.
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magie
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by magie » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:54 am

joachim33 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:17 am

Aranjuez strings are still on my list to try. Which ones are you using?

If it matters: I have been using Savarez sets mostly in the past 1.5 year. ....
I have Cantiga New Cristal now on the M10 - I still had them on my shelf and didn't want to start with a new set of PBs jsut because of the two bass strings.

I used Savarez New Cristal Corum 500 CR before but they sounded IMO too crisp on my guitars.

From the moment I tried the Aranjuez strings I fell in love with the sound - clear, rich and warm.

I have medium tension for my Brilliante Silver A500 for my all-solid spruce/maple and spruce/rosewood.
For my girls I have low tension A800 Suave Silver on solid-top spruce/rosewood and spruce/maple.

I really really love the sound and their playability. It's worth a try. Maybe you like them too.

I didn't try Aranjuez on the PB M10 (cedar / rosewood) so far. But I heard in another threat, that carbon trebles are best for this guitar.
Best wishes from magie!

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magie
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by magie » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:00 am

joachim33 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:58 am
How about a bad batch? How did you source them (e.g. single bulk purchase)?
Cannot be a poor batch.

Many different sources, bought at different times.

I had a very nice contact with Musik Meyer who distribute those strings. They sent me a whole bunch of string packages for free. But problem remained - safe for those guitars where I followed the "no-cutting whats-so-ever" policy ... :lol:
Best wishes from magie!

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magie
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by magie » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:02 am

Actually, at the big T , several customers report early string-break ... :?
Best wishes from magie!

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joachim33
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by joachim33 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:46 am

magie wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:54 am
joachim33 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:17 am

Aranjuez strings are still on my list to try. Which ones are you using?

If it matters: I have been using Savarez sets mostly in the past 1.5 year. ....
I have Cantiga New Cristal now on the M10 - I still had them on my shelf and didn't want to start with a new set of PBs jsut because of the two bass strings.

I used Savarez New Cristal Corum 500 CR before but they sounded IMO too crisp on my guitars.

From the moment I tried the Aranjuez strings I fell in love with the sound - clear, rich and warm.

I have medium tension for my Brilliante Silver A500 for my all-solid spruce/maple and spruce/rosewood.
For my girls I have low tension A800 Suave Silver on solid-top spruce/rosewood and spruce/maple.

I really really love the sound and their playability. It's worth a try. Maybe you like them too.

I didn't try Aranjuez on the PB M10 (cedar / rosewood) so far. But I heard in another threat, that carbon trebles are best for this guitar.
You have a lot of sympathy from me for your frustration. I think I like bright strings - might be what you call crisp. In my view the higher tension ones are slightly less bright.

I had a look at the Aranjuez reports and sort of come round that there might be an issue with them. It sort of limits my motivation to try them. I can't invest the hour it takes me to change strings to often. I think I revisit Hannabach next (have a set of 815LT sitting for a year).

Laudiesdad69
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:36 pm

I think Joachim is right, it didn't register with me that it was 5 guitars, but at least one of the pictures looked like th e saddle was kind of high. I think maybe he got a bad lot of those strings. I got a bad batch of Augustine strings where the d strings all had almost four inches of floppy, loose wound area on them. They were too short to use after cutting off the loose end. 5 months later, I tried another set, and they were fine.

astro64
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by astro64 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:08 pm

If I leave guitars sitting for a long time I also tend to get the A or D string to break, and I don't think it has anything to do with bridge or saddle, they can break in the middle. My suspicion is that due to the changes in temperature and possibly humidity with the seasons, the strings contract and stretch with temperature, the wood with humidity changes, and eventually the weakest strings or those at highest tension may break. Never the bass E, never a treble string, only A or D. I don't recall it ever happening as soon as in a few days though. It has to be a long period, more than 3 or 6 months. And it doesn't happen on all guitars, so perhaps the stiffness of the guitar top also plays a role. That would be harder to test. One thing to try would be to detune the strings a bit if you know the instrument will not get played for a longer time and see if that avoids the problem.

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magie
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by magie » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:43 pm

Thanks for all your replies.
I did take some pics now. Saddle heights are quite different - from low to high - I never noticed since the action is perfect on all of them ...

M10
Screenshot_2018-01-26-18-07-52.png
Spruce /maple all solid
Screenshot_2018-01-26-18-31-22.png
Spruce / rosewood all solid with freshly torn string
Screenshot_2018-01-26-18-07-38.png
Spruce / maple solid top
Screenshot_2018-01-26-18-36-19.png
The latter was re-stringed following the procedure in my first post ... the colored ends look ... :(
Screenshot_2018-01-26-18-42-04.png
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Best wishes from magie!

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joachim33
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by joachim33 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:02 pm

Looking at the image of the broken string, I am inclined to believe that this has nothing to do with the saddle or the block or the way the string was fixed to the block. The position of the fracture is well separated from the saddle. If the string wasn’t old or abused (e.g. sharp bending, overtensioned), my best guess is a manufacturing or design fault.

Lovemyguitar
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by Lovemyguitar » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:38 pm

astro64 wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:08 pm
If I leave guitars sitting for a long time I also tend to get the A or D string to break, and I don't think it has anything to do with bridge or saddle, they can break in the middle. My suspicion is that due to the changes in temperature and possibly humidity with the seasons, the strings contract and stretch with temperature, the wood with humidity changes, and eventually the weakest strings or those at highest tension may break. Never the bass E, never a treble string, only A or D. I don't recall it ever happening as soon as in a few days though. It has to be a long period, more than 3 or 6 months. And it doesn't happen on all guitars, so perhaps the stiffness of the guitar top also plays a role. That would be harder to test. One thing to try would be to detune the strings a bit if you know the instrument will not get played for a longer time and see if that avoids the problem.
This is my experience, too (and, this is certainly not the first time somebody here has posted about it). I also second the advice to detune the guitar if you know that you're not going to play it for a while (when I do that, I have no string-break problems).

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martinardo
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by martinardo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:54 pm

I sympathize with your string problems but mainly wish to congratulate you on the clarity of

the close-up pictures. :bravo:
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Laudiesdad69
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:19 am

The break angle does appear to be excessive in the second photo, and maybe the third, but not on all of them. The first and fourth photos look fine. I notice that you also use the loose wound part of the string at the tie block. I used to do that too, but had breakages. So now I put the loose wound end to the roller, and tie the other end to the tie block using a single loop. Then if I have enough string to wind at the roller without the floppy end, I cut it off at the roller. How high is your action at the 12th fret? While you seem not to have problems with string breakages before, does the problem persist with other strings? Different brands?
It looks like the windings are separating on a couple of strings in picture number four.

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joachim33
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by joachim33 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:16 am

Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:19 am
The break angle does appear to be excessive in the second photo, and maybe the third, but not on all of them. The first and fourth photos look fine. I notice that you also use the loose wound part of the string at the tie block. I used to do that too, but had breakages. So now I put the loose wound end to the roller, and tie the other end to the tie block using a single loop. Then if I have enough string to wind at the roller without the floppy end, I cut it off at the roller. How high is your action at the 12th fret? While you seem not to have problems with string breakages before, does the problem persist with other strings? Different brands?
It looks like the windings are separating on a couple of strings in picture number four.
With all respect to you:
She wrote that she isn't using the "floppy end" at the block any longer.

Laudiesdad69
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:19 am

joachim33 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:16 am
Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:19 am
The break angle does appear to be excessive in the second photo, and maybe the third, but not on all of them. The first and fourth photos look fine. I notice that you also use the loose wound part of the string at the tie block. I used to do that too, but had breakages. So now I put the loose wound end to the roller, and tie the other end to the tie block using a single loop. Then if I have enough string to wind at the roller without the floppy end, I cut it off at the roller. How high is your action at the 12th fret? While you seem not to have problems with string breakages before, does the problem persist with other strings? Different brands?
It looks like the windings are separating on a couple of strings in picture number four.
With all respect to you:
She wrote that she isn't using the "floppy end" at the block any longer.
Sorry, but why is it in the pictures then?
Last edited by Laudiesdad69 on Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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magie
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by magie » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:46 pm

to clarify the "floppy ends" issue . The confusion is probably raised by the pics which show the different guitars in different states ... let me try to explain:

Before I used floppy ends at the roller - result string breakage for all guitars, regardless of large angle at the block or not.
Now I try floppy ends at the block.
Pic No 4 and 5 show the same block of a guitar where I changed all strings a week ago.
Pic No 1 shows my M10 where I changed 5A and 4D two days ago because of string break.
Pic No 2 shows a guitar, where I changed 4D 2 months ago using the floppy end at the roller. The other strings are older than a year.
Pic No 3 is a further guitar not re-stringed yet. Strings are very old (about 2 years .. not surprised about the breakage at all)


I have long-time experience only with Aranjuez, Savarez and Paulino Bernabe strings.
With Savarez I did not have any problems. Aranjuez is a nightmare with respect to breakage. PB was the first time I experienced breaking.
Best wishes from magie!

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dta721
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Re: 5A and 4D Bass strings don't like being in a dark case ...

Post by dta721 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:29 pm

magie wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:46 pm
to clarify the "floppy ends" issue . The confusion is probably raised by the pics which show the different guitars in different states ... let me try to explain:

Before I used floppy ends at the roller - result string breakage for all guitars, regardless of large angle at the block or not.
Now I try floppy ends at the block.
Pic No 4 and 5 show the same block of a guitar where I changed all strings a week ago.
Pic No 1 shows my M10 where I changed 5A and 4D two days ago because of string break.
Pic No 2 shows a guitar, where I changed 4D 2 months ago using the floppy end at the roller. The other strings are older than a year.
Pic No 3 is a further guitar not re-stringed yet. Strings are very old (about 2 years .. not surprised about the breakage at all)


I have long-time experience only with Aranjuez, Savarez and Paulino Bernabe strings.
With Savarez I did not have any problems. Aranjuez is a nightmare with respect to breakage. PB was the first time I experienced breaking.

Yesterday I had the 6E broken very close to, or at the bridge (Augustine Blue if you wonder), and I used the good end (not sparsely wound end). The knots on the bridge was intact. Thus, I have a vested interest in your issue!

Here is my theory on the nature of bass strings broke when you open the case :( . I know it has been mentioned in earlier post about break angle and especially "kink" as a result of a poor restringing job (with all due resect to the OP).

I think especially with bass strings D, A and E, care should be taken to make those loops and tuck the strings at the bottom of the bridge to avoid excessive kinks. Once a bass string is looped and undone to make a perfect knot (I did that, kind of a perfectionist :( ), weak point(s) would have developed right there so that a bass string will break prematurely (shorter than the expected life)!

I don't know for sure if using the bad ends at the bridge will aggravate the problem of shorter life span, but the lengths of those bass strings are long enough to restring, so why not cut off the bad ends to remove any doubt?

My 2 cents!

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