Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Choice of classical guitar strings and technical issues connected with their use.
es335
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by es335 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:06 pm

I have no true evidence but it is not unlikely that Hannabach Silver 900/200 and Pyramid Sterling Silver strings have more in common than the word "Silver"! Just consider the yarn-lapped end and that both are just available in MT and HT!? This is of course by no means a proof but probably more than an coincidence in particular as there had been rumors in Germany that Pyramid might be manufacturing both!?

Would be interesting to hear the opinion of HB Silver 900/200 users. Anyway Pyramid Sterling Silver are really worth while testing. Just the Carbon trebles are terrible high tension. Unbelievable that I used to use their hard tension set on my old 665 scale Alhambra. Must have been much stronger those days. :lol:

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bacsidoan
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by bacsidoan » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:30 pm

es335 wrote:I have no true evidence but it is not unlikely that Hannabach Silver 900/200 and Pyramid Sterling Silver strings have more in common than the word "Silver"! Just consider the yarn-lapped end and that both are just available in MT and HT!? This is of course by no means a proof but probably more than an coincidence in particular as there had been rumors in Germany that Pyramid might be manufacturing both!?

Would be interesting to hear the opinion of HB Silver 900/200 users. Anyway Pyramid Sterling Silver are really worth while testing. Just the Carbon trebles are terrible high tension. Unbelievable that I used to use their hard tension set on my old 665 scale Alhambra. Must have been much stronger those days. :lol:
I have used both, and even put them on the same guitars. They are not the same strings.

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petermc61
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by petermc61 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:16 pm

Gaspere wrote:Peter,

what do you to say about the tension of the Silver Sterling strings?

The Double Silver moderate tension grew rather hard after just a few days. I normally use hard tension strings and bought medium by mistake, but they are tense enough I think. Any comment on the Sterling?
Hi Gaspere

I have never thought of that question. Either a string feels good to me or it doesn't. Pyramid Sterling silver feels good!

I generally don't like the feel of really stiff strings so I don't know whether the sterling silver are not quite as stiff, or maybe they use a more flexible core or feel different due to the winding. These would all go to the overall feel.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I do love the sound of these strings very much and the tension and feel is also fine according to my simple good/stay vs dislike/go test I apply!

Cheers
Peter

es335
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by es335 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:00 am

bacsidoan wrote:
es335 wrote:I have no true evidence but it is not unlikely that Hannabach Silver 900/200 and Pyramid Sterling Silver strings have more in common than the word "Silver"! Just consider the yarn-lapped end and that both are just available in MT and HT!? This is of course by no means a proof but probably more than an coincidence in particular as there had been rumors in Germany that Pyramid might be manufacturing both!?

Would be interesting to hear the opinion of HB Silver 900/200 users. Anyway Pyramid Sterling Silver are really worth while testing. Just the Carbon trebles are terrible high tension. Unbelievable that I used to use their hard tension set on my old 665 scale Alhambra. Must have been much stronger those days. :lol:
I have used both, and even put them on the same guitars. They are not the same strings.
Thanks for this feedback but I didn't expect them to be identical ... just very similar but will not overstate that!

Meanhile the Aristona SN normal tension strings really start to impress me particurarly their dynamics and what I would call selectivity rather than separation. Compared to HB which I consider having exceptional separation in my perception, it's like compairing a well balanced choir with six solist "singing" together. For example Jazz chords sound so smooth with DrJs but every single voice is clearly perceived. That's a quality that I found in no other string before. The same goes for the dynamics. I must admit that it might be more an issue of my limited abilities but I'm able to play them so piano like never before and more power generates more volume over a wider range than other strings and that w/o distortion! I think Gaspere mentioned that already! Really a fortune coincidence having bought and tried them! :D

Gaspere

Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by Gaspere » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:26 pm

es335 wrote: Meanhile the Aristona SN normal tension strings really start to impress me particurarly their dynamics and what I would call selectivity rather than separation. Compared to HB which I consider having exceptional separation in my perception, it's like compairing a well balanced choir with six solist "singing" together. For example Jazz chords sound so smooth with DrJs but every single voice is clearly perceived. That's a quality that I found in no other string before. The same goes for the dynamics. I must admit that it might be more an issue of my limited abilities but I'm able to play them so piano like never before and more power generates more volume over a wider range than other strings and that w/o distortion! I think Gaspere mentioned that already! Really a fortune coincidence having bought and tried them! :D
Yes, I really appreciate a detailed feedback of this kind, saying in other words much the same as I have been observing (not that a comment needs to confirm to be valuable). It is so easy to get carried away by enthusiasm and I also play on new guitars which makes it even more difficult to evaluate the effect of this and that.

My Dr J have been on for 18 days now and I play the guitar roughly 3 hours every morning, scales and all. The basses are dying. The crispiness is pulling its last strained breath. That would make the basses worth about 50 hours which is comparable to HB 815, which cost the more or less the same.
Would I be correct to make the general assumption that the silver contents of a bass string is related to its longevity?

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petermc61
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by petermc61 » Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:28 pm

Gaspere wrote:
Would I be correct to make the general assumption that the silver contents of a bass string is related to its longevity?
Hi Gaspere

Hard to know if that generalisation can be proven. What I an say is the two clearly longest lasting bass strings I have ever used have been Pyramid Sterling Silver and La Bella Argento Sterling Silver. The Argento actually got taken off with (probably) plenty of life left as they just lacked weight and power for the guitar they were fitted to.

Peter

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petermc61
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Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by petermc61 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 5:50 am

Well, I could not resist any more. I pulled out my Dr Junger Aristona active nylon strings and fitted the treble strings (I often do the bass and treble separately so I can hear the change of each independently when trying new strings).

They were fitted to a very nice 15 year old spruce/Indian of the 'Romanillos' type guitar. Previous strings were D'Addario composites with full nylon treble set. I used a high tension Aristona set (ordered in mistake - I normally use normal tension strings).

When I first strung them up I was not that impressed frankly. A bit dull and thick sounding. Upside though was a nice saturated, tonally rich string. Oh well, give them a few hours and I can take them off and put one of my favourites back on.

When tuning them up for the first hour they starting tightening up. Sustain starts growing. The trebles started opening up. 'Gee, those chords sound really good. I wonder what this piece will sound like and that piece too...."

Well, a mere two hours in and they are almost stabilised. Intonation is spot on, as good as it gets. They have a lovely sound. The most obvious difference to many other strings I have tried is the dynamic headroom. These things go as loud as you care to push them and retain their tonality without hardening up. A few notes I had been careful pushing before on the 10th to 12th frets on the first string can be really pushed hard and remain clean (I had presumed it was the guitar setup or a bit of mild fret buzz previously). But this remarkable attribute can be heard in every note. Very impressive.

I don't know how they will settle down. I do hope they keep improving. These could well be contenders for the crown in the nylon string stakes.

Peter

es335
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by es335 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:59 am

:D That's very interresting to hear. Another review confirming their extraordinary dynamics! :)

I do suggest to include the basses to your test. I don't know why and how but they match this treble's attribute extremely well. First impression in my case was low volume, less punchy, less lively up until I discovered that they respond much more to the intensity of the stroke than any other strings. You can play them as hard as you dare not damaging your guitar and they will respond with more volume w/o distortion or saturation. I'm really excited to receive the hard tension set for my Kohno!

Peter, how would you rate their tension compared to the previous d'Addarios?

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petermc61
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by petermc61 » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:32 pm

es335 wrote:Peter, how would you rate their tension compared to the previous d'Addarios?
They seem tighter, particularly the top e. I don't think I would live with this set in the longer term, I really do like lower tension strings. I am finding one or two challenging barres not as clean as I would like (barres that I thought I had mastered a while ago) and I am attributing that to the string's tension.

I will be keen to try some lower tension variants in the new year. Right now I just want to see how this set settles down and how the sound stabilises.

Peter

JohnB

Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by JohnB » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:46 pm

I've been following this thread with interest. The Dr Junger strings certainly seem worth exploring.

Out of interest I've been checking up on the tension of the Aristona SN strings, in comparison with D'Addario Pro-Arte. The Dr Junger website gives what appears to be an average tension, rather than the tension of each string (as the D'Addario website does) and the Dr Junger tensions are given in Newtons, rather than kgs. But, doing the conversion of Newtons to kgm, and averaging the D'Addario string tensions - this is what I have come up with:

Dr Junger Aristona SN with Active Nylon trebles (presumably average tension/string):
Soft: 6.63 kg
Normal: 6.93 kg
Hard: 7.44 kg
Extra Hard: 7.95 kg

D'Addario Pro-Arte
Light (J43): 5.94 kg
Normal (J45): 6.32 kg
Hard (J46): 6.57 kg
Extra Hard (J44): 6.69 kg (the Extra Hard bases are the same tension as the Hard bases)

I know that raw figures such as these don't tell the whole story when it comes to the "feel" of a string but the Dr Junger strings do appear to have a tension two steps up on the D'Addario equivalents. Dr Junger "Soft" being roughly the same average tension as the D'Addario "Hard" and the Dr Junger "Normal" being of a higher tension than the D'Addario "Extra Hard".

It's a pity after reading the reviews. The tension of the D'Addario "Normal" J45 strings are fine for me and I would rather avoid higher tensions.

es335
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by es335 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:39 am

Thanks John for your efforts to disclose the secret behind DrJ's tension rating. I made several attempts to get more specific information from DrJ but never received a reply which I consider a real pitty for a string specialist like DrJ.

Regardless of that I doubt that the given values are average values in particular as I know the feel of their normal tension strings now.

My suspicion is that this may indicate the highest value which is normally associated with the top e string rather than the average value. Just compare them to d'Addario's top strings and you will find quite a good corrolation!

As you already formulated, this approach would lead to he conclusion that DrJ's tension would be 2 steps above the d'Addario reference, which is not the case with DrJ in my perception. They feel softer than EJ45 that I can do recommend with safe conscience to try DrJ normal tension Aristona strings! :wink:

Anyway I regret that in particular this confusion/uncertainty prevented me quite a long time to try them. :(

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petermc61
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by petermc61 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:35 am

es335

We normally agree on our views about guitars and strings but this time I think we disagree. When I saw the calculated tensions I thought I finally understood why the strings felt so hard to cleanly bar on the upper frets.

I agree with you the string material feels nice under the fingertips (that is the bit that feels 'soft' to me) but I do find Aristona high tension a harder string to play than the equivalent D'Addario nylon grade or say the Royal Classics Sonata.

Hence my decision to buy in some normal and soft tension Aristona strings.

Peter

Gaspere

Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by Gaspere » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:04 pm

I exaggerated above, the strings were installed on a Friday and so they are 17 days today. It´s roughly 50 hours playing. The 4th string D, broke through the winding yesterday and it looks like crap. The A string doesn´t look too good either. Significantly though, they are not yet dulled. They are in the process, obviously, but not yet dull. Normally the strings become dull and then break through the silverplated winding. In this case it is the opposite. Perhaps as a result of the cross winding.

The trebles have lost some of their "active", or their famed dynamics, and resemble more of a regular nylon string. They are still very good though. The still have a soft but clear sound and great intonation, and no sound of hard plastic. They have also hardened up lately to perhaps a normal hard tension feel. Still good trebles, different but good.

I replaced the cross wound with a 25 hours old Cantiga set and found that the E suddenly has boom, meaning that boom was not significantly present in Dr J. Unnecessay boom perhaps, I liked the calm clear and unpretentious sound of the cross wound strings. Anyway, the Cantiga will do with Dr J´s old active nylon for the time, and they do just fine it seems.

So guys..........Lets´have it, how will Pyramid Sterling Silver combine with Dr J´s active nylon? And the choice of tension? I was thinking medium Pyramid to hard Dr J. This combination will cost 17 euros, which is less than HB 900/200 and could be a better set of strings, and thus be exactly what I am looking for. (yes I know Peter, I will have to buy and try myself, but I purchase in sets of some 15 sets normally because of the freight costs and in this case from two different shops and so I am mulling over the optimal combinations).

Thanks for all the useful contributions.

es335
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Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by es335 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:39 pm

petermc61 wrote:es335

We normally agree on our views about guitars and strings but this time I think we disagree. When I saw the calculated tensions I thought I finally understood why the strings felt so hard to cleanly bar on the upper frets.

I agree with you the string material feels nice under the fingertips (that is the bit that feels 'soft' to me) but I do find Aristona high tension a harder string to play than the equivalent D'Addario nylon grade or say the Royal Classics Sonata.

Hence my decision to buy in some normal and soft tension Aristona strings.

Peter
*Edited*
Comment postponed until I received DrJ's hard tension set. Today I read through some of the very interresting articles of Dr. Junger and I have the vague feeling that there is only one Active Nylon treble set (0.70/0.80/1.00) as is the case with the Pyramid Double Silver Nylon sets!?!?

Keep fingers crossed for Peter that I'm wrong!

BTW the otherwise very interresting reading unfortunatelly did not enlighten the secret behind DrJ's tension rating! :(

JohnB

Re: Pyramid and Dr Junger with nylon strings

Post by JohnB » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:24 pm

I've just had a reply from Dr Junger regarding the tension of the Aristona SN Nylon Normal Tension strings.

In the Guitar String Catalogue (on the Dr Junger website) the strings are given as 68 Newton. However it seems that this is the average tension of the bass strings. The tension of the trebles is E 75 Newton, B 65 Newton, G 55 Newton.

Converting these to kg and comparing them with D'Addario Pro-Arte (as they are widely used) the nearest is their Extra Hard Tension J44:

Dr Junger Aristona SN Nylon Normal Tension

E: 7.65 kg
B: 6.63 kg
G: 5.61 kg
D: 6.93 kg (average for bass strings)
A: 6.93 kg (average for bass strings)
E: 6.93 kg (average for bass strings)

Total: 40.68 kg
Avg: 6.78 kg

D'Addario Pro-Arte Extra High Tension
E: 7.44 kg
B: 5.67 kg
G: 5.85 kg
D: 7.39 kg
A: 7.21 kg
E: 6.58 kg
Total: 40.14 kg
Avg: 6.69 kg

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