classical guitar building plans

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
davidpeiris1
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classical guitar building plans

Post by davidpeiris1 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:58 pm

:) hello everyone I'm from sri Lanka,
I play classical guitar from age 10 ,
Now I'm interested in building my own guitar can anyone help me with books and plans ...I only have home use printer .any thelps please.

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kertsopoulos
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by kertsopoulos » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:29 pm

Please view this topic: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=113404 here at Delcamp, for getting all the necessary plans , equations, geometry and mathematics concerning the building of a guitar as you would like to have, it is "The mathematical Model of the Guitar". Reading the topic's comments you will understand many things concerning the guitar's construction. Wish you the best with your progress! Yorgos

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ameriken
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by ameriken » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:41 pm

:chitarrista: Good luck your guitar! I have absolutely zero wood working skills, I couldn't even build a fence post.
Amalio Burguet 1A Spruce
Takamine C-132S

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kertsopoulos
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by kertsopoulos » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:49 pm

ameriken wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:41 pm
:chitarrista: Good luck your guitar! I have absolutely zero wood working skills, I couldn't even build a fence post.
Everyone, including myself, we all had zero wood working skills, before we made our start in the field.
No one is born with a hammer and a saw in their hands, we must start somewhere and slowly-slowly
day by day we can become better. One should never leave for tomorrow the act of actually getting involved with
what really excites him/her. It is never too late, it is always though early, so, we have to take advantage of
being alive in space and time, cheers, Yorgos.

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ameriken
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by ameriken » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:13 am

Thanks kertsopoulos!
Amalio Burguet 1A Spruce
Takamine C-132S

philip caldwell
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by philip caldwell » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:19 pm

kertsopoulos wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:29 pm
Please view this topic: http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... 6&t=113404 here at Delcamp, for getting all the necessary plans , equations, geometry and mathematics concerning the building of a guitar as you would like to have, it is "The mathematical Model of the Guitar". Reading the topic's comments you will understand many things concerning the guitar's construction. Wish you the best with your progress! Yorgos
reading this sort of complex analysis is more likely to put someone off starting than to help them in my opinion. It makes the whole topic look impossibly complicated, but you don't need to know all the mathematics and so forth. people have been building good instruments without knowing all this for hundreds of years.

ChrisH
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by ChrisH » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:47 pm

Good luck!

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kertsopoulos
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by kertsopoulos » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:17 pm

philip caldwell wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:19 pm
kertsopoulos wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:29 pm
Please view this topic: http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... 6&t=113404 here at Delcamp, for getting all the necessary plans , equations, geometry and mathematics concerning the building of a guitar as you would like to have, it is "The mathematical Model of the Guitar". Reading the topic's comments you will understand many things concerning the guitar's construction. Wish you the best with your progress! Yorgos
reading this sort of complex analysis is more likely to put someone off starting than to help them in my opinion. It makes the whole topic look impossibly complicated, but you don't need to know all the mathematics and so forth. people have been building good instruments without knowing all this for hundreds of years.
Of course, people have built instruments without knowing in fact anything concerning instruments, some have been building them as though they are building a chair or a table. The point is that there are good instruments built, excellent instruments and superb instruments. If one thinks that excellent and superb instruments are built at random, without the necessary knowledge of acoustics, physics and mathematics, is really flying in the clouds. Of course, one will make good guitars with this attitude. Will he/she be able to build excellent and superb instruments? What is one's opinion? I would say yes, if one is lucky enough, even by mistake or by luck an excellent instrument can evolve. The question is how often will this happen?

philip caldwell
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by philip caldwell » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:36 pm

The old instrument makers didn't have any knowledge of advanced science of acoustics etc and they made superb instruments. I'm sure that Stradivari knew only what he learnt and could figure out himself. He knew about the wood and so forth. Now I'm not saying a more detailed knowledge is BAD for you. I'm sure it all helps but I think the more complex stuff should maybe be approached at a later date, otherwise it is very off putting. I think it's best to get some hands on experience and make your first 1 or 2 guitars which will probably be awful but will be huge learning experiences; it is where you 'pay your dues' as they say. then maybe later start to browse these high tech articles. The bit of practical knowledge you have got will probably help one to understand the technical articles better than if they were approached cold. Do you see what I'm saying?

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kertsopoulos
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by kertsopoulos » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:41 am

philip caldwell wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:36 pm
The old instrument makers didn't have any knowledge of advanced science of acoustics etc and they made superb instruments. I'm sure that Stradivari knew only what he learnt and could figure out himself. He knew about the wood and so forth. Now I'm not saying a more detailed knowledge is BAD for you. I'm sure it all helps but I think the more complex stuff should maybe be approached at a later date, otherwise it is very off putting. I think it's best to get some hands on experience and make your first 1 or 2 guitars which will probably be awful but will be huge learning experiences; it is where you 'pay your dues' as they say. then maybe later start to browse these high tech articles. The bit of practical knowledge you have got will probably help one to understand the technical articles better than if they were approached cold. Do you see what I'm saying?
I fully understand what you are saying, however, your post above is very explanatory in itself and it is in a very different approach from your initial post. I can assure you that makers like: Stradivari, Amati, Torres, Ramirez, all of them and each one of them had great knowledge of physics concerning tensions, vibrational behaviour of strings and of plates and they made great use of mathematics. They had superior knowledge of crystallization processes of varnish and much more.... So, we should not make the mistake and compare these sophisticated and knowledgeable masters with the person that makes his first steps in instrument making. Let's not put in the same paragraph of our discussion the masters and the people that first start an instrument making process, knowing completely nothing concerning the subject. After all, we should never compare the layman with the superior expert on any field. Making a good guitar does not require a deep knowledge of the scientific factors involved in the making, however making an excellent and a superb instrument it is absolutely essential. So, my work is there to help people in all stages, it is not there to discourage them. If my work discourages you personally it makes me sad to know that you have not understood anything from what is really happening. I am providing free knowledge to everyone to make each one's work better not to discourage each and everyone from becoming better. Your position is unique in the negativity it reflects. Why? Do you have an explanation for it?

simonm
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by simonm » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:23 am

Have a look at this very recent thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=116678

You can print the Ostberg Torres plans directly from your printer. You may need to print a number of times in order to calibrate the printing from your computer to the scale on each sheet. Plenty of other plans are mentioned. If you have a question about a specific plan or one of the sources mentioned, I suggest you add it to that thread instead of re-inventing the wheel.

As to what the older instrument makers knew or understood, a philosophical book called "Personal Knowledge" by Michael Polanyi is extremely interesting. Polanyi has a very interesting background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Polanyi You can also look at youtube videos where Jose Romanillos talks about understanding his wood by the feel in his fingers.

There are different ways of systematizing knowledge. A good western psychologist and a good eastern palm-reader (emphasis on good in both cases - there are charlatans in both worlds) will help their clients equally well. Similarly there are those who use maths to make their guitars and those who use theirs thumbs: they both can make excellent guitars.

kertsopoulos wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:41 am
…. So, my work is there to help people in all stages, it is not there to discourage them. If my work discourages you personally it makes me sad to know that you have not understood anything from what is really happening. I am providing free knowledge to everyone to make each one's work better not to discourage each and everyone from becoming better. Your position is unique in the negativity it reflects. Why? Do you have an explanation for it?
Hi kertsopoulos,

I think you are reading phillip's post much too negatively. I think if the two of you could talk face rot face, you would find yourselfs much more in agreement than not.

As I read it, what he is simply saying is that until someone has at least make a first attempt, he/she will not have enough knowledge to appreciate the information that you and other helpful people are providing. Someone must reach a certain level of understanding before they can appreciate the knowledge others are offering. Just how much they need to learn first in order to be able "to listen" to advice varies immensely from person to person. For example in may case I had read about people overbuilding guitars but I guess I had built 6 or 7 before I was brave enough to try and build a bit lighter. Maybe I am a slow learner. :-)

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kertsopoulos
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by kertsopoulos » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:06 am

simonm wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:23 am

Hi kertsopoulos,

I think you are reading phillip's post much too negatively. I think if the two of you could talk face rot face, you would find yourselfs much more in agreement than not.

As I read it, what he is simply saying is that until someone has at least make a first attempt, he/she will not have enough knowledge to appreciate the information that you and other helpful people are providing. Someone must reach a certain level of understanding before they can appreciate the knowledge others are offering. Just how much they need to learn first in order to be able "to listen" to advice varies immensely from person to person. For example in may case I had read about people overbuilding guitars but I guess I had built 6 or 7 before I was brave enough to try and build a bit lighter. Maybe I am a slow learner. :-)
Hi Simonm,

Thanks for your kind comment. I have understood very well your thoughts and also I understand Phillip's post and believe me I sympathize a lot with everyone's struggle to try out the demanding work of making a guitar or any other venture he chooses. I do understand that it takes time for people to understand the different levels of knowledge required for different levels of quality to be conquered. However, if someone is at the beginner's stage and cannot accumulate the knowledge that is freely provided to him, to make him better in his work, it is only natural that he should not accuse the knowledge provider for being responsible in discouraging him from proceeding with his work. This was done in the first post that Phillip wrote and I had to clarify some matters and also note that levels do exist: 1) good guitars as Phillip writes 2) excellent guitars 3) superb guitars. We have to admit good guitars anybody can make even by chance or by limited knowledge. However, excellent and superb guitars are not made by chance and limited knowledge and my work gives the tools to anyone interested to make excellent and superb guitars. Persons like Phillip should somehow realize this and try to benefit from my work. If my work discourages the beginner, because it informs him/her that there is a lot of studying to do before one can make an excellent or a superb guitar, I am sorry Simonm, but this is the truth and the truth always hurts. By the way, I did not invent truth!!!

philip caldwell
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by philip caldwell » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:24 pm

simonm wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:23 am
Have a look at this very recent thread: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=116678

You can print the Ostberg Torres plans directly from your printer. You may need to print a number of times in order to calibrate the printing from your computer to the scale on each sheet. Plenty of other plans are mentioned. If you have a question about a specific plan or one of the sources mentioned, I suggest you add it to that thread instead of re-inventing the wheel.

As to what the older instrument makers knew or understood, a philosophical book called "Personal Knowledge" by Michael Polanyi is extremely interesting. Polanyi has a very interesting background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Polanyi You can also look at youtube videos where Jose Romanillos talks about understanding his wood by the feel in his fingers.

There are different ways of systematizing knowledge. A good western psychologist and a good eastern palm-reader (emphasis on good in both cases - there are charlatans in both worlds) will help their clients equally well. Similarly there are those who use maths to make their guitars and those who use theirs thumbs: they both can make excellent guitars.

kertsopoulos wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:41 am
…. So, my work is there to help people in all stages, it is not there to discourage them. If my work discourages you personally it makes me sad to know that you have not understood anything from what is really happening. I am providing free knowledge to everyone to make each one's work better not to discourage each and everyone from becoming better. Your position is unique in the negativity it reflects. Why? Do you have an explanation for it?
Hi kertsopoulos,

I think you are reading philip's post much too negatively. I think if the two of you could talk face rot face, you would find yourselves much more in agreement than not.


As I read it, what he is simply saying is that until someone has at least make a first attempt, he/she will not have enough knowledge to appreciate the information that you and other helpful people are providing. Someone must reach a certain level of understanding before they can appreciate the knowledge others are offering. Just how much they need to learn first in order to be able "to listen" to advice varies immensely from person to person. For example in my case I had read about people overbuilding guitars but I guess I had built 6 or 7 before I was brave enough to try and build a bit lighter. Maybe I am a slow learner. :-)
Thanks Simon. I'll look up the Polanyi book.
yes that is pretty much all I am saying. As I said, I'm not against knowledge at all and I know that the more information we have the better. I was just saying that anyone thinking of having a go at making their first guitar may well feel daunted if the first thing they are shown is a handful of highly technical information they are expected to learn. And it's well known that knowledge has to be assimilated bit by bit, as and when it's needed. To simply try and absorb it all 'in the abstract' as it were is a very hard thing to do. Either way becoming a good guitar maker is a long learning process involving gaining information, using it, experimenting , learning from mistakes, getting more information etc etc. I'm sure all the great makers will say they are always learning. I just feel it is better to get the feel of the wood first and get our hands dirty before we get involved in too much technical study.

philip caldwell
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Location: Portugal

Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by philip caldwell » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:36 pm

kertsopoulos wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:41 am
philip caldwell wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:36 pm
The old instrument makers didn't have any knowledge of advanced science of acoustics etc and they made superb instruments. I'm sure that Stradivari knew only what he learnt and could figure out himself. He knew about the wood and so forth. Now I'm not saying a more detailed knowledge is BAD for you. I'm sure it all helps but I think the more complex stuff should maybe be approached at a later date, otherwise it is very off putting. I think it's best to get some hands on experience and make your first 1 or 2 guitars which will probably be awful but will be huge learning experiences; it is where you 'pay your dues' as they say. then maybe later start to browse these high tech articles. The bit of practical knowledge you have got will probably help one to understand the technical articles better than if they were approached cold. Do you see what I'm saying?
I fully understand what you are saying, however, your post above is very explanatory in itself and it is in a very different approach from your initial post. I can assure you that makers like: Stradivari, Amati, Torres, Ramirez, all of them and each one of them had great knowledge of physics concerning tensions, vibrational behaviour of strings and of plates and they made great use of mathematics. They had superior knowledge of crystallization processes of varnish and much more.... So, we should not make the mistake and compare these sophisticated and knowledgeable masters with the person that makes his first steps in instrument making. Let's not put in the same paragraph of our discussion the masters and the people that first start an instrument making process, knowing completely nothing concerning the subject. After all, we should never compare the layman with the superior expert on any field. Making a good guitar does not require a deep knowledge of the scientific factors involved in the making, however making an excellent and a superb instrument it is absolutely essential. So, my work is there to help people in all stages, it is not there to discourage them. If my work discourages you personally it makes me sad to know that you have not understood anything from what is really happening. I am providing free knowledge to everyone to make each one's work better not to discourage each and everyone from becoming better. Your position is unique in the negativity it reflects. Why? Do you have an explanation for it?
" your post above is very explanatory in itself and it is in a very different approach from your initial post." No it's exactly the same as my initial post in short I think a person needs to get their hands dirty and have some practical experience before reading highly technical stuff. I also believe that many makers in the past learnt as apprentices and in a practical manner and did not have a huge technical mathematical knowledge despite your claims that they did. That does not mean I reject technical knowledge, that would be ignorant literally. Let me leave you with a quote from Torres, since you mention him;
" I am very sorry that a man like you also falls victim of that idea that runs among ignorant people, Juanito (that is how he addressed me) has been witness to the secret [of how to make his outstandingly sounding guitars] many times, but it is impossible for me to leave the secret behind for posterity; this will go to the tomb with me for it is the result of the feel of the tips of the thumb and forefinger communicating to my intellect whether the soundboard is properly worked out to correspond with the guitar maker's concept and the sound required of the instrument'. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_de_Torres_Jurado

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kertsopoulos
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Re: classical guitar building plans

Post by kertsopoulos » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:36 pm

I have nothing more to add Philip, except the following as a last word: if my work discourages you because you find it too technical, then please do not read it, follow it or even attempt to understand it. My work is there to encourage you, not discourage you as you referred in your first post. So. please stay away from it. You never answered me where you got all this negativity that you still reflect and as you say is derived from my work. Just because you cannot at this beginning time accumulate all the technical knowledge that is there, you say you get discouraged by my work. Did I ever write that you should not get your hands dirty? As you well realize no, I never said that! So, please stay away from my work if it discourages you because it is only there to encourage you and help you make excellent and superb instruments, not just good instruments. If your aim is to make only good instruments I fully respect it, however, do not hold me responsible for something that I do not have responsibility. Do not attempt to write that my work discourages one from making a guitar, you are not doing justice even to your work, that maybe in a few years can benefit from my work, when you will be ready to accumulate more serious and deep technical information that goes really deep into knowledge, without fighting intuition. Intuition and feeling and dirty hands are very important but if you stay only at that you will only make for the rest of your life GOOD guitars. Never excellent or superb! Best of luck and remember: stay away from my work if it discourages you, maybe, you are not ready yet for accumulating it. Maybe in the future, maybe never, fully understandable and respected by me. My best regards, Yorgos

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