Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

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wazow
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Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by wazow » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:16 am

I finally took to record one of my favorite pieces. This might have been a mistake, as recording favorite pieces is probably always disappointing - there is so much expectation! I am now about to return to recording simpler things, when the surprise is more often positive (exceeding expectations).
Sainte-Colombe J. de; Les Pleurs.mp3
Thanks to @pogmoor for preparing the arrangement. I surely departed from it. I listened a bit to Savall's recording, and then also stayed within what I can actually play :D The arrangement is available on these forums at: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=110420

The viola recordings have amazing legato, a wealth of colors, extremely slow tempo. None of these things I have succeeded with particularly well. I reached to a point that I really want to play more musically. I attend concerts and hear people doing a good job. How do I learn about using colors, selecting phrases, emphasizing them, controlling rubato, and playing with dynamics well, all without a teacher? How do I avoid being stuck where I am for years?
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pogmoor
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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by pogmoor » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:17 pm

wazow wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:16 am
I reached to a point that I really want to play more musically. I attend concerts and hear people doing a good job. How do I learn about using colors, selecting phrases, emphasizing them, controlling rubato, and playing with dynamics well, all without a teacher? How do I avoid being stuck where I am for years?
In my view you are already doing what is really important - listening to other musicians and hearing what they do with the music. From the way you play this piece I think you have taken a lot of that on board. French music from this period is particularly difficult to play effectively on the guitar and I think you have have made a good job of this piece :bravo:
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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wazow
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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by wazow » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:16 pm

Thank you for the encouragement, pogmoor!

khs
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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by khs » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:05 am

Dear wazow thanks for sharing your playing. It was impressive to me.
However, I think the arrangement reveals the advantageous points of guitar less successfuly. Playing original renaissance or early baroque viol music with guitar is rather innately difficult for some reasons. Viol has bowing which enables playing gradual swelling or dimnuendo and it can give subtle tint change, emotional nuance controls continuously with time sequence. But playing the same piece with guitar is another story. Once the fingertip touches and passes the string It has no longer control of notes. So it is nearly impossible to render long tone melody lines with guitar like viol family instruments. So the music becomes completely different. In my opinion, the viol piece arranged for guitar should have appealed to the strong aspects of guitars such as polyphony, separation and individualizing of melody and accompanying parts, and abundance in harmony. Otherwiase the played melody lines of legato diminishes rapidly with the color and subtle nuance of emotion. :casque:

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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by pogmoor » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:08 pm

khs wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:05 am
... Playing original renaissance or early baroque viol music with guitar is rather innately difficult for some reasons. Viol has bowing which enables playing gradual swelling or dimnuendo and it can give subtle tint change, emotional nuance controls continuously with time sequence. But playing the same piece with guitar is another story. Once the fingertip touches and passes the string It has no longer control of notes. So it is nearly impossible to render long tone melody lines with guitar like viol family instruments. So the music becomes completely different. In my opinion, the viol piece arranged for guitar should have appealed to the strong aspects of guitars such as polyphony, separation and individualizing of melody and accompanying parts, and abundance in harmony...
Broadly speaking I agree with these points. However if you look at surviving music from the late renaissance and early baroque periods you many examples of the same pieces arranged for different instruments. The English 17th century solo viol repertory includes numerous pieces well-known as lute pieces (for example the Lachrimae Pavan and Fortune my Foe) and the French viol repertory (of Sainte-Colombe, Marin Marais et al.) has much in common with the French lute repertory of the same period. As I said in my earlier post, French music from this period is particularly difficult to play effectively on the guitar - for some of the reasons you mention. But this does not mean it is not worth making the effort, nor is it (given the resemblance between the lute and the guitar) out of keeping with performance practice at the time. And I think wazow's performance does illustrate that :)
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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wazow
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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by wazow » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:57 pm

Of course, there is no way I can have the texture and variations of colour on a single sound anywhere close to a viol. I also agree that a more polyphonic arrangement would show the strenght of a plucked instrument much better. But at least this one I could play at my skill level :) Not sure how much harder I would be able to take :P

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StuMayes
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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by StuMayes » Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:38 pm

Well I thought that was a lovely interpretation, well done Wazow :D

Leo Weier
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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by Leo Weier » Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:10 pm

First time i hear Sainte-Colombe played on guitar.
Well done, wazow.
Thanks for posting.

Greetings Leo

gilles T
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Re: Sainte-Colombe, Jean de - Les Pleurs (Tears)

Post by gilles T » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:41 pm

Hello,
If I was able to play this half as good as you, I would be very happy.
Regards,
Gilles

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