Schubert voice and guitar

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PeteJ
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by PeteJ » Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:48 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:16 pm
Well there isn't a shred of actual evidence that he really did,...
Yep, I accept this. I also accept what you say about his style. Against my idea I'd also say it's odd, if he did play gtr, that he didn't write more specifically for it.

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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by zupfgeiger » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:36 am

Belgian guitarist Jan Depreter is touring these days with Bariton Werner van Mechelen with Schubert songs programme.
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by richtm » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:02 pm

There are two I think I have to add here...
My personal favorite one is this

Enjoy it's a real FRANZ SCHUBERT
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Jim Davidson
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Jim Davidson » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:28 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:52 pm
Er, we think he might have done but there's as much reason to think he didn't as to think he did. At least, its not for certain.
You have to admit that there's an awful lot of evidence that points to a relationship with the guitar...

-Contemporary accounts say that he took guitar lessons

-He moved constantly (something like 12 times in ten years) and didn't bring a piano with him. Actually, he sent a letter home saying that he was going to send back his piano. At the same time, he owned a guitar.

-He wrote Bierdermeier-style folk music for casual performances that was almost always played with guitar accompaniment, and we even have paintings of Schubert in said settings with guitars clearly visible.

-His music was performed with guitar accompaniment on a number of occasions where he was in attendance.

-Diabelli regularly published works by Schubert with an arranged guitar accompaniment which were quite commercially successful during Schubert's lifetime

Even if Schubert didn't explicitly write for guitar, performances of his music on guitar were common in his lifetime and he never voiced any objection to it.
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:32 am

Jim Davidson wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:28 am
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:52 pm
Er, we think he might have done but there's as much reason to think he didn't as to think he did. At least, its not for certain.
You have to admit that there's an awful lot of evidence that points to a relationship with the guitar...
-Contemporary accounts say that he took guitar lessons
-He moved constantly (something like 12 times in ten years) and didn't bring a piano with him. Actually, he sent a letter home saying that he was going to send back his piano. At the same time, he owned a guitar.
-He wrote Bierdermeier-style folk music for casual performances that was almost always played with guitar accompaniment, and we even have paintings of Schubert in said settings with guitars clearly visible.
-His music was performed with guitar accompaniment on a number of occasions where he was in attendance.
-Diabelli regularly published works by Schubert with an arranged guitar accompaniment which were quite commercially successful during Schubert's lifetime
Even if Schubert didn't explicitly write for guitar, performances of his music on guitar were common in his lifetime and he never voiced any objection to it.
I don't have to admit anything Jim; I state clearly that there several things that suggest the possibility.
But with points such as you have made, the question always has to be that of sources. So often, when researching this 20 years ago, I chased the source of a claim only to find that it was an unsupported assertion on the back of an LP or something, almost invariably, an assertion in support of the purchase of the item! So Jim, in hopes, where are the contemporary sources for the guitar lessons?
Yes, he owned a guitar. Or at least, was in possession of one. And I an in possession a violin - I can assure I cannot play it! I also own a keyboard, and here its a bit more vague. What do we mean by 'play' an instrument. Often, in this area of discussion, when somebody asserts that so-and-so 'played' an instrument, their assumption is that because they were a wonderful musician, they had therefore to be wonderful on said instrument, or least, had a meaningful relationship with it. I'd say many musicians experiment a bit with a variety of instruments, maybe get a bit OK on them. My dabblings on keys, recorder, wooden flute, bowed psaltery, ocarina, etc etc had better not be taken (fanciful thought experiment coming up!) by my future biographer as evidence that I 'played' them, as in, had a meaningful relationship with them such that enthusiasts for such an instrument would claim me as 'theirs'. My Head of Department, a wonderful organist, can play the obvious chords on guitar - but would never say he's a guitarist. This is a common situation. My view from the evidence is that it may have been something a bit the same with Schubert. People around him, friends and relatives, played various instruments, including guitars. Perhaps he 'had a go'.
We must remember always that Schubert and geniuses of his ilk had no need for an instrument in order to compose - the only eye-witness account that springs to mind of somebody visiting him and finding him composing, he was sitting at a desk and tapping the rhythms with his fingers.
Re your 3rd point, sources please? I do know of the one painting where he is sitting on the grass next to a guitarist. Any others? You did imply a plural.
4th point, sources?
Yes we know Diabelli published guitar versions, sometimes before the piano originals. Brian Jeffery's view is that they were simplified beyond acceptability, and certainly, the only one I have been able to find, Die Wanderer, the guitar part is pretty awful, omitting the essential semi-tone dissonance for example (its on imslp). I would argue that the fact that as far as we know, it was Diabelli's work (or a guitarist he employed) is proof enough that Schubert had little interest in these things or he would surely have preferred to do a better job himself, and certainly, if he had any even faint enthusiasm for it he would have written at least something (beyond D80) that was only for guitar, or for guitar first and with a piano arrangement of an original guitar part. All the evidence points away from that.
Last point, sources again?
Remember, I would love these things to be true. That's why I spent many many hours scouring the two authoritative collections of contemporary material by Otto Erich Deutsch. I was literally amazed to find nothing of substance. All discussed in the article referenced a few posts ago. A few further items have come to light since those books, as one would expect, but nothing yet has shifted the argument. But the deafening silence from countless pages of testimony and documentation convinces me that if Schubert had any kind of relationship with our instrument it was so slight as to be trivial.
Subject to your supplying convincing sources for your significant claims above, of course.
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Jim Davidson » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:28 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:32 am
Jim Davidson wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:28 am
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:52 pm
Er, we think he might have done but there's as much reason to think he didn't as to think he did. At least, its not for certain.
You have to admit that there's an awful lot of evidence that points to a relationship with the guitar...
-Contemporary accounts say that he took guitar lessons
-He moved constantly (something like 12 times in ten years) and didn't bring a piano with him. Actually, he sent a letter home saying that he was going to send back his piano. At the same time, he owned a guitar.
-He wrote Bierdermeier-style folk music for casual performances that was almost always played with guitar accompaniment, and we even have paintings of Schubert in said settings with guitars clearly visible.
-His music was performed with guitar accompaniment on a number of occasions where he was in attendance.
-Diabelli regularly published works by Schubert with an arranged guitar accompaniment which were quite commercially successful during Schubert's lifetime
Even if Schubert didn't explicitly write for guitar, performances of his music on guitar were common in his lifetime and he never voiced any objection to it.
I don't have to admit anything Jim; I state clearly that there several things that suggest the possibility.
But with points such as you have made, the question always has to be that of sources. So often, when researching this 20 years ago, I chased the source of a claim only to find that it was an unsupported assertion on the back of an LP or something, almost invariably, an assertion in support of the purchase of the item! So Jim, in hopes, where are the contemporary sources for the guitar lessons?
Yes, he owned a guitar. Or at least, was in possession of one. And I an in possession a violin - I can assure I cannot play it! I also own a keyboard, and here its a bit more vague. What do we mean by 'play' an instrument. Often, in this area of discussion, when somebody asserts that so-and-so 'played' an instrument, their assumption is that because they were a wonderful musician, they had therefore to be wonderful on said instrument, or least, had a meaningful relationship with it. I'd say many musicians experiment a bit with a variety of instruments, maybe get a bit OK on them. My dabblings on keys, recorder, wooden flute, bowed psaltery, ocarina, etc etc had better not be taken (fanciful thought experiment coming up!) by my future biographer as evidence that I 'played' them, as in, had a meaningful relationship with them such that enthusiasts for such an instrument would claim me as 'theirs'. My Head of Department, a wonderful organist, can play the obvious chords on guitar - but would never say he's a guitarist. This is a common situation. My view from the evidence is that it may have been something a bit the same with Schubert. People around him, friends and relatives, played various instruments, including guitars. Perhaps he 'had a go'.
We must remember always that Schubert and geniuses of his ilk had no need for an instrument in order to compose - the only eye-witness account that springs to mind of somebody visiting him and finding him composing, he was sitting at a desk and tapping the rhythms with his fingers.
Re your 3rd point, sources please? I do know of the one painting where he is sitting on the grass next to a guitarist. Any others? You did imply a plural.
4th point, sources?
Yes we know Diabelli published guitar versions, sometimes before the piano originals. Brian Jeffery's view is that they were simplified beyond acceptability, and certainly, the only one I have been able to find, Die Wanderer, the guitar part is pretty awful, omitting the essential semi-tone dissonance for example (its on imslp). I would argue that the fact that as far as we know, it was Diabelli's work (or a guitarist he employed) is proof enough that Schubert had little interest in these things or he would surely have preferred to do a better job himself, and certainly, if he had any even faint enthusiasm for it he would have written at least something (beyond D80) that was only for guitar, or for guitar first and with a piano arrangement of an original guitar part. All the evidence points away from that.
Last point, sources again?
Remember, I would love these things to be true. That's why I spent many many hours scouring the two authoritative collections of contemporary material by Otto Erich Deutsch. I was literally amazed to find nothing of substance. All discussed in the article referenced a few posts ago. A few further items have come to light since those books, as one would expect, but nothing yet has shifted the argument. But the deafening silence from countless pages of testimony and documentation convinces me that if Schubert had any kind of relationship with our instrument it was so slight as to be trivial.
Subject to your supplying convincing sources for your significant claims above, of course.
Hey Stephen,

I'd refer you to Stephen Mattingly's 2007 dissertation from FSU. My points essentially summarize his work, and it includes analysis of Deutch's writing on the subject.

http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/islandora/o ... u%3A180929

I'd agree with you that Schubert likely had only a casual relationship with the instrument, but I'd also say it's well within the realm of the performance practice of the time to play some of his music on guitar.
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:31 am

Jim Davidson wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:28 am
...
I'd refer you to Stephen Mattingly's 2007 dissertation from FSU. My points essentially summarize his work, and it includes analysis of Deutch's writing on the subject....
I'd agree with you that Schubert likely had only a casual relationship with the instrument, but I'd also say it's well within the realm of the performance practice of the time to play some of his music on guitar.
Yes, got that one. Perhaps something was a bit in the air - my article was online in 2006! I fully agree with him that most of the problem lies with the absolute total garbage propagated by certain writers.
Mattingly's outlook is remarkably like mine; of course, having the resources of a university behind him and I assume, knowledge of German language, has taken it places I could not. Though personally I cannot see the point of all the Schenker for our purposes. And while he appraises D80 I wonder that he did not query the clunky writing in some places - almost like somebody who knows how the guitar works but doesn't bother to try ideas out ...
Re guitar lessons; I note that he dismisses Bone's suggestion that Schubert Snr gave Franz lessons, but mentions an anecdote by Mayrhofer that Theodor Korner gave the young Schubert lessons, a reference in Deutch I evidently missed. However since Korner died in 1813 and Mayrhofer met Franz in 1814 there is evidently some degree of separation from the fact - no lessons were witnessed by Mayrhofer; presumably he was told this happened after the event, and reported it in his memoires, which can't have been that long after any such event as he jumped out of a window and killed himself in 1836...not implying he is necessarily an unreliable reporter, but evidently prone to certain problems.
Stephen does not seem to have noticed that Mayrhofer shared lodgings with Schubert at the period of the Umlauff visit that may be the root of the nonsense of Franz playing guitar in bed. The point being (as per my article) that if you read that memoire closely, it is not specified who is playing the guitar -
"On these occasions he often sang freshly composed songs to the composer, to guitar accompaniment,..."
... and both Umlauff and Mayrhofer are known to have played, for sure. One thing I would really like would be to get an independent re-translation of that memoire entry to see if any nuance has been lost. Moreover, this anecdote was made 40 years after the event by somebody who was not there.
Re paintings; there is one painting, Ballspiel in Atzenbrugg showing Franz next to a guitarist. Stephen also shows in his Figure 3: The Outing, a man presumably Schubert, getting into a carriage apparently clutching a small dog, and causing a terrible mess, while Umlauff sits at the back with a guitar.
But of course yes, your last point it is perfectly clear and right.
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by sniggl » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:50 pm

Wonderful! This works so well for guitar , fantastic!
The bariton ( I think he is a bass bariton ) has a great voice!

Great find Tony!!

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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by sxedio » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:21 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:32 am
Yes we know Diabelli published guitar versions, sometimes before the piano originals. Brian Jeffery's view is that they were simplified beyond acceptability, and certainly, the only one I have been able to find, Die Wanderer, the guitar part is pretty awful, omitting the essential semi-tone dissonance for example (its on imslp). I would argue that the fact that as far as we know, it was Diabelli's work (or a guitarist he employed) is proof enough that Schubert had little interest in these things or he would surely have preferred to do a better job himself, and certainly, if he had any even faint enthusiasm for it he would have written at least something (beyond D80) that was only for guitar, or for guitar first and with a piano arrangement of an original guitar part. All the evidence points away from that.
I found a Diabelli arrangement of the Trout a while ago, if I can find it again I will link here.
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by musicbyandy » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:16 pm
I used the Tecla edition which makes modern versions of the songs published contemporaneously with guitar alternatives, and they take real work. Btw the reason the updated versions were made was that it was deemed the historical ones were simplified beyond acceptability - but I've not seen the originals to take a view of this.
I want to see the originals.

Are these the originals?
https://www.prestomusic.com/sheet-music ... ydn-band-1
https://edicioneseudora.com/index.php?m ... 4ab77724a6
https://edicioneseudora.com/index.php?m ... 4ab77724a6

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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:28 am

musicbyandy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:16 pm
I used the Tecla edition which makes modern versions of the songs published contemporaneously with guitar alternatives, and they take real work. Btw the reason the updated versions were made was that it was deemed the historical ones were simplified beyond acceptability - but I've not seen the originals to take a view of this.
I want to see the originals.

Are these the originals?
https://www.prestomusic.com/sheet-music ... ydn-band-1
https://edicioneseudora.com/index.php?m ... 4ab77724a6
https://edicioneseudora.com/index.php?m ... 4ab77724a6
I don't know, the first one probably not as Spencer is credited as arranger, the others might be. The sample page didn't work.
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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:43 am

For those with an interest.

Coste arranged Schubert for guitar and voice:
http://boijefiles.musikverket.se/Boije_1047.pdf

Boije also has this:
http://boijefiles.musikverket.se/Boije_0884.pdf
Ständchen with accompaniment for guitar or piano - from the Danish publisher Wilhelm Hansen.

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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by musicbyandy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:01 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:28 am
musicbyandy wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:16 pm
I used the Tecla edition which makes modern versions of the songs published contemporaneously with guitar alternatives, and they take real work. Btw the reason the updated versions were made was that it was deemed the historical ones were simplified beyond acceptability - but I've not seen the originals to take a view of this.
I want to see the originals.

Are these the originals?
https://www.prestomusic.com/sheet-music ... ydn-band-1
https://edicioneseudora.com/index.php?m ... 4ab77724a6
https://edicioneseudora.com/index.php?m ... 4ab77724a6
I don't know, the first one probably not as Spencer is credited as arranger, the others might be. The sample page didn't work.
I own the three editions listed. I don't have the books in front of me but when I arrive at home from work, I would be happy to list the exact song titles, engraving plate numbers, original publishers and arrangers.

I don't see Spencer credited as arranger in any of the three books.

The first book, 19th Century Songs: Beethoven, Haydn and Schubert, includes an introduction by Spencer. The book contains two Schubert songs published by Diabelli and 3 Schubert songs published by Czerny. Of the three songs published by Czerny, one song is an anonymous arrangement and two songs are credited as being arranged by Pfiefer.

The second book, Franz Schubert: Two Songs op.43, contains two songs published by Pennauer.

The third book, Franz Schubert: Six Songs op.118, contains 6 songs published by Czerny.

The editors of all three of these books claim that the engraving plates came from Vienna in the 1820s. Three of the song titles contained within these three books correspond to song titles in the Tecla book by Thomas Heck. Again, I'm writing from memory and would be happy to elaborate on the contents of these books when I return home from work.

I was hoping that you would be able to verify if these 14 arrangements are part of the "more than two dozen" arrangements of Schubert songs with guitar accompaniment published during Schubert's lifetime that Thomas Heck wrote about in the introduction of the Tecla book. Does anyone have an email address for Thomas Heck?
Last edited by musicbyandy on Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by musicbyandy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:08 pm

.

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Re: Schubert voice and guitar

Post by musicbyandy » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:55 pm

.

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