Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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chiral3
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by chiral3 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:24 pm

riffmeister wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:28 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:43 pm
On the other hand, what makes this run harder is that it ascends (descending runs are easier).
Interesting. I've never noticed this in my own playing.
I wonder if this happens with people that have a legato / pull-off tilt. Growing up playing electric guitar I used to cheat a little practicing modes by hammering on and pulling off. When I speed up CG I notice descending is a little faster and easier, and I think it's because I am ever so slightly pulling off.
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CactusWren
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by CactusWren » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:12 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:34 pm
CactusWren wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:18 am
If it were that important to you, you'd have spent the time and effort to obtain those speeds, no?
If only life were so simple.
Okay.

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Contreras
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by Contreras » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:03 pm

glassynails wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:00 pm
PeteJ wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:40 pm
A book I have here suggests that a serious player (not a pro) should be able to play scales cleanly in sixteenths at crotchet = 132. Which proves I'm not a serious player.
Scales and runs have always been one of my weak points. Most likely cause I never play scales. I just can't get over the boredom of them.
+1 😴😴
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guitarrista
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by guitarrista » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 am

chiral3 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:24 pm
riffmeister wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:28 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:43 pm
On the other hand, what makes this run harder is that it ascends (descending runs are easier).
Interesting. I've never noticed this in my own playing.
I wonder if this happens with people that have a legato / pull-off tilt. Growing up playing electric guitar I used to cheat a little practicing modes by hammering on and pulling off. When I speed up CG I notice descending is a little faster and easier, and I think it's because I am ever so slightly pulling off.
What I was referring to was in the context of scales played apoyando (rest stroke) without any slurs. In that context, descending runs are slightly easier because string-crossing is towards the bass strings (which means in the same direction as your fingers doing a rest stroke) so your finger is already on that string because of its rest stroke. On ascending runs, there is an extra movement and setup that has to happen on string-crossing because in that case your finger has to cross two strings to get set up on the next string toward the treble side. I suppose the same argument also applies if the runs are done tirando (free stroke).
Last edited by guitarrista on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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riffmeister
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by riffmeister » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:17 am

guitarrista wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 am
chiral3 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:24 pm
riffmeister wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:28 pm


Interesting. I've never noticed this in my own playing.
I wonder if this happens with people that have a legato / pull-off tilt. Growing up playing electric guitar I used to cheat a little practicing modes by hammering on and pulling off. When I speed up CG I notice descending is a little faster and easier, and I think it's because I am ever so slightly pulling off.
What I was referring to was in the context of scales played apoyando (rest stroke) without any slurs. In that context, descending runs are slightly easier because string-crossing is towards the bass strings (which means in the same direction as your fingers doing a rest stroke) so your finger is already on that string because of its rest stroke. On ascending runs, there is an extra movement and setup that has to happen on string-crossing because in that case you finger has to cross two strings to get set up on the next string toward the treble side. I suppose the same argument also applies if the runs are done tirando (free stroke).
Makes sense, thanks. In my own playing I typically "cheat" and incorporate slurs.

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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by msa3psu » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:22 pm

Jack Douglas wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:52 pm
FrankBlack wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:06 am
Wow, thank you for the Matt Palmer video. I like the fact that his speed doesn't seem to impact his tone very much. I am not interested in speed for speed's sake, but improving speed without affecting tone is a very useful skill for some songs with the need for such a thing. I may look into Matt's book.
Matt is a great guy, very talented and humble. His book is a good purchase!
Matt Palmer plays ami scales (also called tremolo scales). Philip Hii is a noted advocate for this also. I have often wondered how applicable the technique is in real musical settings. Mr. Palmer seems to do very well with it where it works and I suppose, but am not sure, he plays other scale fingerings when three notes per string don't work.

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guitarrista
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by guitarrista » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:21 pm

msa3psu wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:22 pm
Matt Palmer plays ami scales (also called tremolo scales). Philip Hii is a noted advocate for this also. I have often wondered how applicable the technique is in real musical settings. Mr. Palmer seems to do very well with it where it works and I suppose, but am not sure, he plays other scale fingerings when three notes per string don't work.
He does have a little book about it (80pp.) and goes into detail about all the exceptions and how he deals with them. The book is called "The Virtuoso Guitarist, Vol. 1. A New Approach To Fast Scales".

At about the same time as this book, another one was published covering the same topic. It is by Matthieu Jacquot and is called "Natural Velocity: the a,m,i scales technique - applied to the Chaconne in D min BWV 1004". The author made it freely available under a Creative Commons license. One of the places you can find it is at the IMSLP here.
Konstantin
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msa3psu
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by msa3psu » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:22 am

Many thanks for the Jacquot article. Has anyone studied Matt Palmer's and this one? If so, do you find their approaches similar enough to be indifferent for study or is it necessary to consider both and choose which fits ones playing style best?

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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by Ramon Amira » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:01 am

With all due respect, Segovia's runs are hardly "blazing speed." They can just about be called "fast." By comparison listen to Grisha Goryachev below. Watch what happens at about 45 to 100 in the video. Now that's what you call blazing speed.

And other flamenco guitarists can play runs just as fast as Grisha. I would also point out that though Grisha is primarily a flamenco guitarist, he is also a classical guitarist, and has studied with Elliot Fisk. He happens to be a fine classical guitarist, and would easily make his mark if he ever chose to seriously go in that direction.

Ramon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvLzQgD2oAU
Last edited by Ramon Amira on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by CliffK » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:36 am

+1 Matt Palmer
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Henny
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by Henny » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:25 pm

As i was advised by Rognvald to do the scales in high positions, i already started with AMI.
With your comments here i decided to order Matt Palmers book.
lets see what and how he treat the exceptions and apply AMI in the daily playing.
i see it helped me sofar to have a better right hand balance because i use a/m more often then before.
thanks for sharing your ideas here.
regards,
joannes

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guitarrista
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by guitarrista » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:26 pm

msa3psu wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:22 am
Many thanks for the Jacquot article. Has anyone studied Matt Palmer's and this one? If so, do you find their approaches similar enough to be indifferent for study or is it necessary to consider both and choose which fits ones playing style best?
The Jacquot article is a bit brief. It is bilingual (text is in both English and French side-to-side) so it is actually more like 20 pages rather than 35. Palmer lays things out in a more systematic way, and with more detailed explanations.
Konstantin
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msa3psu
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by msa3psu » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:21 pm

Thanks, guitarrista. It sounds like you've studied the ami scale technique. If so, do you find that it is a replacement or near complete replacement for conventional im or mi scales or do you see it as another tool that has application at times. I refer to conventional scale technique as predominately two finger but with three used for convenience as needed and I am also talking about mostly fast scales. To put the question another way...would you first try to finger any fast scale passage with ami as taught by Matt Palmer.

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guitarrista
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Re: Segovia's blazing fast scale runs?

Post by guitarrista » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:11 pm

msa3psu wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:21 pm
Thanks, guitarrista. It sounds like you've studied the ami scale technique. If so, do you find that it is a replacement or near complete replacement for conventional im or mi scales or do you see it as another tool that has application at times. I refer to conventional scale technique as predominately two finger but with three used for convenience as needed and I am also talking about mostly fast scales. To put the question another way...would you first try to finger any fast scale passage with ami as taught by Matt Palmer.
I haven't taken a serious look at studying Palmer's approach yet as I don't have an issue with speed in scales using apoyando i-m alternation. In terms of general interest, I still got the book and read through it. I recently started doing some scales practice with apoyando ami/ima cycling (ami-ami-ami... and ima-ima-ima...) as a way to improve and equalize dexterity and strength for all three fingers. However I do not change this cycling pattern when string-crossing so I don't really use Palmer's prescriptions for string-crossing.
Konstantin
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