Can You Play a Simple Song?

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JohnB
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by JohnB » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:54 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:48 am
Is that the piece in G that starts with the G9/Cmaj7th chords? I was thinking of this piece earlier. Grade 1 and perfectly listenable.
I think that must be a different piece as the one I was referring to is in D maj. This is an example (IMO she is too liberal with rubato but does makes music of the piece - which is pretty simple to play, Trinity grades it as IV): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdoEBcmbwz0

(I didn't embed the video as I don't want to disrupt the thread.)
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso", Christopher Dean 2018, Ana Maria Espinosa 2014

AndreiKrylov

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:10 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:38 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:14 pm
Smudger5150 wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:49 am


Another thread drift...kind of interesting that you started teaching mathematics. Andrew York is/was into some heavy cryptology mathematics I believe. And I was a joint honours in maths and computer science for my degree. Just wondered if guitar attracts people who like that kind of area....
I've heard people say aspects of music and maths are not dissimilar.

And yes, your Mel Bay books look worth a look. Well the comping for fingerstyle one in particular.
Interesting... why music supposed to be connected in us with mathematics? I am absolutely indifferent to mathematics... even probably more than that - I dislike it.. I never ever been interested in it...
and all my life I worked as a guitarist... Guitar attracted me because... probably because I was exposed to it from my birth and even before that, probably because my ancestors played it and or were in Arts as artists, painters etc.
From the moment I played it first time, when I was around 3 years old I felt in love with it .. and just played all my life.
Maths? Computer Science? NO NO NO !!!! to the degree that I would be very unhappy if life will force me to do it...
And when I play or create music I calculate nothing... No math at all ... I just play, express myself, having fun, satisfaction, it is all.

Hi, Andrei,
I have to be careful with my comments since I want to be informative rather than didactic. My experiences in life are very similar to yours but I believe there are many ways to make a good soup. In life, there are Left and Right brained individuals and this determines from a biological perspective how we think and act in life as well as how we approach the Arts: Music, Writing and Visual Art. Written Music, as we see it on the page, is similar to an algebraic/geometric problem. It needs to be decoded to unlock the answer/Music. However, the performance of Music, for me, is the antithesis of a math problem in that a good performance requires much more than a cold reading but rather the total sum of a performer's life experiences, both musically and experientially, to produce a good performance. We see it quite clearly in some performers who, perhaps, a case could be made for Left and Right-brained performers: John William: right-brained; Ricardo Gallen: left-brained I believe are fair examples. I would also go out on a limb to generalize and say that musicians from Latin America(Spain/South America/Mexico/Central America) and many Eastern European musicians play with a more left-brained approach than Central and Northern European players who, in my opinion, are more right-brained. Of course, with all things in life, there are exceptions and we are not talking about exceptions but rather generalities. The bottom line, however, is always the performance and the best way to determine how you play is to play a simple song where the musicians interpretation cannot be clouded with frenetic flourishes and rapid-fire tempo but rather must be expressed in a simple line that truly tests the essence of each note and the breath of life given to each melodic line. Playing again . . .Rognvald
Thanks for this informative comment, Rognvald...
did I offer just one possibility? one way... ?
No.
I am not against math etc. or comparison one with another, but I just shared my personal feelings and attitude in this matter...
Whatever way people approach or like music - it is their own right, but it is anybody's right to disagree with it and to have different understanding and feelings..
I doubt that humans from different locations etc are more right or left (brained) .
We are probably approximately the same in this (as in other biological features etc.) everywhere.
In any case our differences are mostly linguistic ( but languages certainly are not just communication instruments, but also in many aspects ways how to construct things)
I wonder what do you think about me - left (brained)?
I can play ping-pong equally with any hand ; right or left... and usually.. win :)
Therefore maybe I have no right nor left..
just something small in the middle... :)

"A team of neuroscientists set out to test this premise. After a two-year analysis, they found no proof that this theory is correct. Magnetic resonance imaging of 1,000 people revealed that the human brain doesn’t actually favor one side over the other. The networks on one side aren’t generally stronger than the networks on the other side. "
https://www.healthline.com/health/left- ... ying-sharp
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bob1a
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by bob1a » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:19 pm

Simple story, a friend of mine has started learning violin. At one point her teacher gave her a simple piece and told her to learn it and memorize it, for sometime, somewhere, someone will ask her to play for them, and she will be able to.

bob1a

AndreiKrylov

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:48 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:37 am
Twenty-First Century Guitar Pedagogy is an enigma to me. In my opinion, both teachers and students, alike, are on a one-track race course to move through the river of technique and repertoire to achieve guitaristic nirvana with the majority of students playing pieces well beyond their level and control. It is, in my opinion, counter-productive and a fraud to the student. However, you hear young guitarists mouthing "I'm playing Alhambra" . . . or,"Just finished Asturias". . . as if they were on a superhighway ticking off cities on their path. The problem for the serious student is that he reaches a level of technical competency to "finger" through pieces but, sadly, discovers he can't play a simple song well. It is because we do not focus on the importance of Music as a means to communicate feelings and emotions but rather see it, in a perverse way, of finger gymnastics. The testament to this is how many people "play" the CG but never make it out of the bedroom to a real performance. And, the reason they don't is that they can't play a simple song well. Are these the musings of a delusional Romantic or do you think this is valid? Playing again . . . Rognvald
I totally agree with this!
But.. it could be another problem too.. lack of time... maybe we are now has less time than 30 -40 years ago?...
There were no internet.. no forums .. no youtube... no FB.
You could play and play guitar and have zero distraction...
nowadays...
so much distraction... when one need to concentrate and finish something and go to something else.. instead one could be interrupted and and interrupted...
Also when you are alone with yourself and your books, not even audio, - the only way is to imagine things, therefore you have to imagine something instead of getting (youtube or else) result of what you want to achieve today etc.
I one sense it is very good! in another..
So just another point to this discussion... :)

davekear
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by davekear » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:27 pm

On the other hand there's an incredible amount of talent out there these days when it comes to classical guitarists. Great guitarists who not only play really well, but also have a great sense of musical feeling. More today than ever before. From all walks of life, who play simple songs beautifully.

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Lawler
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Lawler » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:06 am

bob1a wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:19 pm
Simple story, a friend of mine has started learning violin. At one point her teacher gave her a simple piece and told her to learn it and memorize it, for sometime, somewhere, someone will ask her to play for them, and she will be able to.

bob1a
Nice.

Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:26 am

I can play ping-pong equally with any hand ; right or left... and usually.. win :)
Therefore maybe I have no right nor left..
just something small in the middle... :)

"A team of neuroscientists set out to test this premise. After a two-year analysis, they found no proof that this theory is correct. Magnetic resonance imaging of 1,000 people revealed that the human brain doesn’t actually favor one side over the other. The networks on one side aren’t generally stronger than the networks on the other side. " Andrei

Andrei,
Much "science" today is heavily imbued with a PC mentality that promotes contemporary political thought rather than hard science. Irrespective of many paid academic studies which have, in my opinion, a premise before the study is initiated, there is no sentient human being today that cannot distinguish between left and right handed thinkers. We are as evident among human populations as a strawberry is among avocados. My propensities in life are literature, philosophy, history, art and music and irrespective of time and energy spent, I could never be an accomplished mathematician, physicist or biologist as many of my Right-handed thinker friends. It is not because I lack native intelligence but rather because I am a Left-brained thinker. Contrary to Y2K politcal thought, human beings are all hardwired differently and we are not all the same. I have been fortunate in life because I have been able to cross over to the other side to make a good living but i was like a mercenary soldier hired to do a job and return to my world at the end of the day. Biology, Math, Physics are hard Sciences. They are, in my opinion, irrefutable in essence. However, Psychology, Sociology, Political Science and Economics are Social Sciences which are tainted irrefutably by contemporary thought . . .ergo, the study of Left and Right brained thinkers. In regards to the above mentioned study, there is no way a CT scan or an MRI will ever be able to distinguish human personality traits from magnetic resonance much as we, as humans, could never tell a book from its cover. I guess I'm just a Left-Brained thinker. Playing again . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:15 am

nm

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lagartija
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by lagartija » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:34 am

“Rognvald” wrote:...there is no sentient human being today that cannot distinguish between left and right handed thinkers.
These labels, “left-brain thinker” and “right-brain thinker” cannot be applied to everyone. I say that because they do not apply to me. I use both halves of my brain equally. I create in the visual arts (and have had that work recognized and published). I create things in the scientific/engineering fields that have been described in scientific and engineering journals. I am at home thinking and creating in either world.

I read that paper and its main limitation is the small number of participants. A functional MRI scan just shows what part of the brain is in use at that moment when thinking or performing a task. It shows the region of the brain in use *at that moment*. What they saw was that in 1000 people, both sides are used for problem solving at the same time and that it is the connection between the hemispheres that coordinates this.

I am not a “special” or unusual person (IMO), and if I can use both sides with equal facility to solve problems and be creative, I would expect that many others could do likewise.
I don’t neatly fit into the left /right brain thinking boxes that you insist are obvious to any sentient human. I do consider myself sentient. :-)
Perhaps I’ve totally misunderstood what you are trying to say. If so, please clarify.
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Rasputin
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rasputin » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:02 am

PeteJ wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:11 pm
Perhaps it is telling that the perennial philosophy is unfalsifiable in just the way it would be if it were true and that this would be impossible to explain if it is dependent on faith and not knowledge, and perhaps also it could be noted that for a global phenomenon it is an implausible coincidence that all skilled practitioners make exactly the same 'leap of faith' regardless of culture, language and age. Maybe also it is suggestive that this philosophy is perfectly consistent with modern physics but wildly out of line with the naively-real Newtonian universe.

But you're right, nobody can demonstrate that they know something and it is only by testing the water can we be sure of the temperature.
Thanks for your response - I will reflect on what you say.

PeteJ
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by PeteJ » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:33 pm

Rasputin - Thanks. What I say is not very convincing and I know this, but this isn't the place to delve deeper.

Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:22 pm

lagartija wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:34 am
“Rognvald” wrote:...there is no sentient human being today that cannot distinguish between left and right handed thinkers.
These labels, “left-brain thinker” and “right-brain thinker” cannot be applied to everyone. I say that because they do not apply to me. I use both halves of my brain equally. I create in the visual arts (and have had that work recognized and published). I create things in the scientific/engineering fields that have been described in scientific and engineering journals. I am at home thinking and creating in either world.

I read that paper and its main limitation is the small number of participants. A functional MRI scan just shows what part of the brain is in use at that moment when thinking or performing a task. It shows the region of the brain in use *at that moment*. What they saw was that in 1000 people, both sides are used for problem solving at the same time and that it is the connection between the hemispheres that coordinates this.

I am not a “special” or unusual person (IMO), and if I can use both sides with equal facility to solve problems and be creative, I would expect that many others could do likewise.
I don’t neatly fit into the left /right brain thinking boxes that you insist are obvious to any sentient human. I do consider myself sentient. :-)
Perhaps I’ve totally misunderstood what you are trying to say. If so, please clarify.
Hi, Lagartija,
I never said that all people are Left or Right-brained but rather that there are some people who are and it is easily recognizable to those who have social interactions with these people. There are many fortunate people, like yourself, who have advanced abilities-- both Left and Right brained and it is definitely an evolutionary advantage. For myself, although functional in the Sciences, I am a Left-Brained thinker and could never excel in the Hard Sciences as those with Right Brained capabilities. So, I agree with everything you have said and just wanted to clarify my thoughts since there was some confusion as to what I wrote. As a final remark, I think it is important for schools to identify these traits in young people to better shape the direction in life in which they will be most successful. I can assure you, I could never have been a matriculated student in Physics or Math but I have been an accomplished writer and musician throughout my life. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

JohnB
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by JohnB » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:49 pm

Rognvald, it might be worth reading this article ("The Guardian" is a serious UK newspaper with a left of centre bent, owned by a charitable trust): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ction-myth
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso", Christopher Dean 2018, Ana Maria Espinosa 2014

MaritimeGuitarist
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by MaritimeGuitarist » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:24 pm

JohnB wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:49 pm
Rognvald, it might be worth reading this article ("The Guardian" is a serious UK newspaper with a left of centre bent, owned by a charitable trust): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ction-myth
Hi John,

Good article, but really a waste of a post. Rognvald has already made it clear that he is willing to reject peer-reviewed research conducted by professionals in the field in favor of the prevailing pop psychology (psychology of the "herd", if you will) take on the right/left brain theory. You aren't going to change the mind of someone like that.

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lagartija
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by lagartija » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:09 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:22 pm


Hi, Lagartija,
I never said that all people are Left or Right-brained but rather that there are some people who are and it is easily recognizable to those who have social interactions with these people. There are many fortunate people, like yourself, who have advanced abilities-- both Left and Right brained and it is definitely an evolutionary advantage. For myself, although functional in the Sciences, I am a Left-Brained thinker and could never excel in the Hard Sciences as those with Right Brained capabilities. So, I agree with everything you have said and just wanted to clarify my thoughts since there was some confusion as to what I wrote. As a final remark, I think it is important for schools to identify these traits in young people to better shape the direction in life in which they will be most successful. I can assure you, I could never have been a matriculated student in Physics or Math but I have been an accomplished writer and musician throughout my life. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Ok, thanks for that clarification. :)

As for schools identifying such traits.... I suppose that it depends on what you believe the purpose of education is. There are several schools of thought (pun intended). In Europe, they have a test that sorts out those who are destined for University and those who will be put on a track for apprenticeships in trades. This test takes place in the very early teen years. In the US, the assumption is that all are college bound unless they self select in high school to avoid the more advanced courses or are unable to do the work. To me, it seems the point of education in the European mode is to find what the student does well, aim them in that direction, and the result is someone who fits into the appropriate niche in society. Some have little choice what they will do in life, but they will "know their place" in society with some assurance. The US model seems to be an attempt to encourage all students to develop to their full potential, which is unknown at the beginning of the teen years because they have not finished their development. This means that they do not choose a specialty until they are 20 years of age. They have more time to gain facility at a variety task types before deciding their life's work. The decision is not made for them....they are free to choose. And they are free to be aimless and clueless members of society if they cannot decide what they are good at. If you believe that the point of education is to prepare a person for a particular role in society, one might choose the European model. If you believe that the point of education is to aid in the total development of each child to achieve their full unknown potential as a human being you might choose the US model. I will not say that one method is better than the other, only that each society makes choices about what they want to achieve when they educate their young.

In speaking recently to a young woman attending the University in my town, we discussed how she was dealing with different challenges in the curriculum. She told me that she was good in some areas and enjoyed those tasks a lot. She recognized that it might be because in her childhood she got the most positive feedback and recognition from parents and teachers for doing those things well. For those things she did not already do well, she found it difficult to have the motivation to do them, even though they were required by her degree program. From my viewpoint of 62 years, I told her that life was full of things one had to do and you might not know how to do them well in the beginning, but with practice might gain some competency at doing them and that would be very useful indeed. Also that one had to develop the "internal reward" for doing something that does not come easily to you and that as an adult, you will rarely be rewarded or recognized by anyone for completing a necessary task whether you are good at it or not. She admitted that she still had to learn how to do this. I had the feeling when I spoke to her that she was newly introspective and being new to having to work this out for herself.

I remember well the extreme pleasure of doing the tasks that I most liked when I was her age. I also remember taking pride in doing things that people said I had "no talent" for....just to prove to myself that I could do it if I wished. I did not think I would be "the best" at these tasks...but I would do them to the best of my ability and be at least competent in doing them. So as an Art student, I took an Electrical Engineering lab that I thought looked interesting :twisted: , I took an Astronomy class and an Anthropology class. None of the other Art students in my class did this sort of thing. They said to me, "Oh...I'm not good at Science..." Meanwhile, in my Science classes, the students would say, "Oh, I can't even draw a straight line...I can't do Art." They were told from a young age what they were "good at" and perhaps it was true, but they never explored those fields they were "not good at". They admitted as much to me. After I graduated from Art School, when I told my own Father that I was going to study Astrophysics, he said... "Some people are good at Science...and some people are good at Art.... I think you are good at Art." I vowed to myself that I would succeed...(and I did!) because I liked both fields, Art *and* Science. One always informed the other. I loved the study of the natural world.
Acute observation...necessary in both Science and in the visual Arts. Acute observation...necessary in music, too. Listening to what sound you are producing and deciding if that is exactly what you wanted in order to create your soundscape. Hearing the simple song and finding the beauty in its simplicity. The same as finding the exact lines your eye craves to see to form the exact image you wished to create in your drawing. The same as finding just the right materials, proportions, properties to create the instrument you need to observe a natural phenomenon. To me, using all of the knowledge and skills I have and bringing them together (no matter what the field of endeavor) to create something of beauty and elegance is one of the most rewarding things in life.
I have a wonderful music teacher....weekly, he teaches me how to listen to the music. How to observe with my ears. Again, acute observation in action. I hear it when he points something out to me, but it was something I missed previously. This is the development stage, when education is helping you to achieve your full potential. Perhaps I was born with ability to do this, but it has lain dormant until education (and motivation) has aided the development. For people to play a simple song beautifully, they have to know what "beauty" is and they have to know enough about producing the sound on their instrument to paint that soundscape for others.
When the sun shines, bask.
__/^^^^^o>
Classical Guitar forever!

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