Can You Play a Simple Song?

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Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:02 pm

There's also the notion that people go to college in order to discover things that are important for living a good life, even if they have nothing to do with finding a career or niche in society. There are plenty of miserable rich lawyers and real estate moguls, and some joyous poor monks and nuns as well. Somehow these last found something that was valuable to them and made them happy, even though they appear to have fallen through the cracks by established norms. I wonder how we would direct children towards happiness when this is something that they'll need to find for themselves, whatever their niche or occupation. Education in general is vital for this. Critical thinking frees people to make self determined choices that work for them. And of course Lagartija points out how she's developed her sensibilities and other capacities through learning how to learn. We even learn love and compassion and how to be alone and how to manage anxiety and a dozen other things that will never be part of a curriculum. But a broad college education can enable us--give the skills--to develop these capacities.

And that's part of why I think having adults choose education paths for children and enforcing them is a bad idea. People grow and develop and change, in better circumstances.

chiral3
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by chiral3 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:28 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:02 pm
There's also the notion that people go to college in order to discover things that are important for living a good life, even if they have nothing to do with finding a career or niche in society.
There *was* this notion. Alas, anti-intellectualism, rampant credentialization, specialization, the student loan business, etc. have done irreparable damage to how we view education and the pursuit of knowledge.
"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect" - Margaret Mitchell

chiral3
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by chiral3 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:29 pm

.
"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect" - Margaret Mitchell

Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:05 pm

I enjoyed your post, Lagartija. As a product of the US School System, I clearly believe the European Model of Education is far superior since it uses testing and performance to direct a student to fields of endeavour for which he/she has a natural/academic aptitude. In the USA, we want to believe that anyone can be anything they want to be irrespective of test scores, IQ, or inherent measurable talents/skills. Ergo, the senior high school student with a 102 IQ, below average ACT/SAT scores who reads at a 9th grade level is told by their teachers that he/she can be a doctor or lawyer in order to preserve their sensitive self image. . . just another example of a decline in American Values created by a our "feel good" society of ostriches with their heads firmly lodged in the sand. Playing again . . .Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:06 pm

"just another example of a decline in American Values created by a our "feel good" society of ostriches with their heads firmly lodged in the sand."

Yeah but, Rognvald, you're pulling this out of thin air. You begin with a premise--"ostriches" etc., and then tell a story that concludes by affirming the same premise. That's just putting a rabbit in a hat in order to draw it out again later. The reality isn't so cut and dried.

In any case who's to say that the person/people directing a student to 'appropriate' fields of endeavor are themselves qualified to do so? By your own reasoning one would have to assume that they most often aren't. And what in the world are 'inherent measurable skills/talents..." that would determine what a fourth or fifth grader will be assigned in life? How would a young person who's never acted in a play or written a poem or dissected a cow heart be identified as having talent in these areas--or not.

But we already know that we disagree over your notion of strict genetic determinism. Happily, scientists don't agree with your theories either.
Last edited by Jeffrey Armbruster on Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AndreiKrylov

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:39 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:02 pm
There's also the notion that people go to college in order to discover things that are important for living a good life, even if they have nothing to do with finding a career or niche in society. There are plenty of miserable rich lawyers and real estate moguls, and some joyous poor monks and nuns as well. Somehow these last found something that was valuable to them and made them happy, even though they appear to have fallen through the cracks by established norms. I wonder how we would direct children towards happiness when this is something that they'll need to find for themselves, whatever their niche or occupation. Education in general is vital for this. Critical thinking frees people to make self determined choices that work for them. And of course Lagartija points out how she's developed her sensibilities and other capacities through learning how to learn. We even learn love and compassion and how to be alone and how to manage anxiety and a dozen other things that will never be part of a curriculum. But a broad college education can enable us--give the skills--to develop these capacities.

And that's part of why I think having adults choose education paths for children and enforcing them is a bad idea. People grow and develop and change, in better circumstances.
My parents put me in Music school, but I disliked it and left it after 1st year (been around 10). They did not forced me because they were too busy divorcing :) Later I returned to music school myself and then I knew what and why I need .all years without school I played guitar, whatever I liked...and I played guitar and worked as guitarist all my life...

My sister 12 years younger was in Music school, then family was stable and my mother forced my sister to study.
She did it for 11 years (piano), at the end she played big piano concertos by memory and had perfect marks in that school.
At 18 she went to university, left home, and .. stop playing piano and classical music completely.
She was forced... and she hated it...she choosed work which has nothing to do with music...

AndreiKrylov

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:51 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:05 pm
I enjoyed your post, Lagartija. As a product of the US School System, I clearly believe the European Model of Education is far superior since it uses testing and performance to direct a student to fields of endeavour for which he/she has a natural/academic aptitude. In the USA, we want to believe that anyone can be anything they want to be irrespective of test scores, IQ, or inherent measurable talents/skills. Ergo, the senior high school student with a 102 IQ, below average ACT/SAT scores who reads at a 9th grade level is told by their teachers that he/she can be a doctor or lawyer in order to preserve their sensitive self image. . . just another example of a decline in American Values created by a our "feel good" society of ostriches with their heads firmly lodged in the sand. Playing again . . .Rognvald
what is IQ test?
When I looked at it I found that it is not really applicable to me :D
I think if I'd take it - I will probably fail miserably simply because it is oriented on certain way of thinking and certain culture...:)
Also I've met many people who did great on different tests, yet in life itself...they were not very far or in trouble...
I know also many folks who succeeded in different music tests and education and then.. produce or create not much or nothing ...
http://www.macleans.ca/education/uniand ... ly-matter/

Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:05 pm

Andrei, you bring up another point--what about kids who grew up in broken homes, poverty, a home environment that was indifferent to or discouraged education. What about a kid being tested whose mother had just died, or a sister, or who spent five months in hospital? Or a kid who smoked dope the day of the test, or who hadn't grasped the consequences of not taking it seriously--when he or she is 10 or twelve years old. None of this and many other possible factors have anything to do with how that kid is hardwired one way or the other, or what they might become down the road. Oh and then there are children whose parents are rich and tutor them for these same tests in advance. You see where this is going.

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lagartija
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by lagartija » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:19 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:05 pm
I enjoyed your post, Lagartija. As a product of the US School System, I clearly believe the European Model of Education is far superior since it uses testing and performance to direct a student to fields of endeavour for which he/she has a natural/academic aptitude. In the USA, we want to believe that anyone can be anything they want to be irrespective of test scores, IQ, or inherent measurable talents/skills. Ergo, the senior high school student with a 102 IQ, below average ACT/SAT scores who reads at a 9th grade level is told by their teachers that he/she can be a doctor or lawyer in order to preserve their sensitive self image. . . just another example of a decline in American Values created by a our "feel good" society of ostriches with their heads firmly lodged in the sand. Playing again . . .Rognvald
Hmmmm.... I think you missed the point I was making in my post, Rognvald. I too, am the product of the US educational system. I was not told that I could do anything I wanted to do in order to spare my self esteem. In fact, I was actively discouraged by teachers and even my own Father in attempting to do something for which they believed I did not have the aptitude. Their judgment was in error and I did succeed and as Jeffrey points out, what makes those put in a position to judge such things competent to make that judgment? The tests they give you as a young child? Tests often measure how well you take tests (as Andrei pointed out) and tests are not a panacea. I clearly remember one test I was given as a child in 5th grade...about half way through I rebelled against answering the absolutely stupid questions being asked and randomly filled in the remaining circles of the multiple choice test so it would be over. It might very well have been that aptitude or IQ test that was supposed to determine my abilities and talents. :lol:
I have seen a lot of poorly designed tests and experiments in my life and I have seen many erroneous conclusions drawn from limited or poorly selected data sets. I always question whether the measurements being made are accurate and if they are a true test of the target property. Nevertheless, I do not ignore the data obtained, but try to refine what has actually been measured and what is not answered by the test.
When the sun shines, bask.
__/^^^^^o>
Classical Guitar forever!

AndreiKrylov

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:22 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:05 pm
Andrei, you bring up another point--what about kids who grew up in broken homes, poverty, a home environment that was indifferent to or discouraged education. What about a kid being tested whose mother had just died, or a sister, or who spent five months in hospital? Or a kid who smoked dope the day of the test, or who hadn't grasped the consequences of not taking it seriously--when he or she is 10 or twelve years old. None of this and many other possible factors have anything to do with how that kid is hardwired one way or the other, or what they might become down the road. Oh and then there are children whose parents are rich and tutor them for these same tests in advance. You see where this is going.
I never took any test seriously... even today :

Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:41 am

lagartija wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:19 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:05 pm
I enjoyed your post, Lagartija. As a product of the US School System, I clearly believe the European Model of Education is far superior since it uses testing and performance to direct a student to fields of endeavour for which he/she has a natural/academic aptitude. In the USA, we want to believe that anyone can be anything they want to be irrespective of test scores, IQ, or inherent measurable talents/skills. Ergo, the senior high school student with a 102 IQ, below average ACT/SAT scores who reads at a 9th grade level is told by their teachers that he/she can be a doctor or lawyer in order to preserve their sensitive self image. . . just another example of a decline in American Values created by a our "feel good" society of ostriches with their heads firmly lodged in the sand. Playing again . . .Rognvald
Hmmmm.... I think you missed the point I was making in my post, Rognvald. I too, am the product of the US educational system. I was not told that I could do anything I wanted to do in order to spare my self esteem. In fact, I was actively discouraged by teachers and even my own Father in attempting to do something for which they believed I did not have the aptitude. Their judgment was in error and I did succeed and as Jeffrey points out, what makes those put in a position to judge such things competent to make that judgment? The tests they give you as a young child? Tests often measure how well you take tests (as Andrei pointed out) and tests are not a panacea. I clearly remember one test I was given as a child in 5th grade...about half way through I rebelled against answering the absolutely stupid questions being asked and randomly filled in the remaining circles of the multiple choice test so it would be over. It might very well have been that aptitude or IQ test that was supposed to determine my abilities and talents. :lol:
I have seen a lot of poorly designed tests and experiments in my life and I have seen many erroneous conclusions drawn from limited or poorly selected data sets. I always question whether the measurements being made are accurate and if they are a true test of the target property. Nevertheless, I do not ignore the data obtained, but try to refine what has actually been measured and what is not answered by the test.
Hi, L,
We must strive to judge important things in life by generalities . . not exceptions. There are very few premises whether scientific or in folk-lore where an exception cannot be made in re: a general premise. If we say, perhaps, that the average ethnic German is taller than the average ethnic Japanese, we know this to be true. However, one could readily find a Japanese person(s) whose height is equal to or taller than the average German. What does this prove? The above "scientific study" quoted by John can hardly be used as anything other than a scientific curiosity since the sample population is only 1,000 individuals. And, for those of us who read Science on a regular basis, we know that one can practically prove anything with select groups in small numbers. We Americans have imbued in our sense of Independence a sometimes naive view of life that is tempered by notions of what we want to believe rather than what things actually are in essence. So be it. However, perhaps I misread your remarks and have hopefully restated my views. I have never sought to be an evangelist in Life for one cause or another. I have only attempted to discover and save myself. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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lagartija
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by lagartija » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:58 am

....And, for those of us who read Science on a regular basis, we know that one can practically prove anything with select groups in small numbers.
In this statement, we are in agreement.

Most scientists will add caveats to conclusions gained from a small sample and indicate possible sources of sample bias, even if the newspapers do not state those caveats. That does not necessarily make the data they have collected wrong, it just indicates further work might be needed.
When the sun shines, bask.
__/^^^^^o>
Classical Guitar forever!

Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:07 am

"We must strive to judge important things in life by generalities . . not exceptions."

Well, that's one opinion. I live my life in great particularity, not 'in general'.
Last edited by Jeffrey Armbruster on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Dirck Nagy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:09 am

lagartija wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:19 pm
...
I clearly remember one test I was given as a child in 5th grade...about half way through I rebelled against answering the absolutely stupid questions being asked and randomly filled in the remaining circles of the multiple choice test so it would be over.
...
Ha! I did exactly the same thing!

I wonder how many of our compatriots did that?

dtoh
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by dtoh » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:45 am

A few thoughts.

I think there are quite a few of us here who wish we had sufficient technique to play a simple song well and expressively. Not a lot of sympathy here for complaints about people whose technical capabilities are over-developed. I wish I had that problem.

Finger gymnastics may not be music, but maybe some people like doing finger gymnastics. What's wrong with that.

FWIW - Intelligence can be assessed quite accurately by measuring simple reaction time. Results correlate very closely with IQ test results. Doesn't really have anything to do with attitude, culture, parents, test prep, left brain, right brain, etc.

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