Can You Play a Simple Song?

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Guero
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Guero » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:51 am

dtoh wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:45 am
Intelligence can be assessed quite accurately by measuring simple reaction time. Results correlate very closely with IQ test results.
So table tennis players are the smartest? :wink:

Sorry, just couldn't resist...

Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:07 pm

A thought: If testing is not always valid, how do we ascertain competency? For example, if you are a carpenter and attended the Carpenter's Union School, you will learn how to cut 45 degree angles, create butt joints, use a level, read blueprints, build proper walls, etc. How other than testing does a student show his teachers that he understands what he has learned? If he had a bad night, argued with his wife, felt depressed, would he forget this knowledge? How is this different than a young student being tested in Math, Science and Social Studies who ,perhaps, is dealing with a challenged home environment but,nonetheless, has had a good education at school? There are some people in this world who have excuses for everything and it is why our country(USA), in my opinion, is in serious intellectual decline. If you don't have standards and testing to measure competence, how do you determine what a person has learned? Burning incense to the gods? Playing again . . .Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:31 pm

testing?
OK
Lets imagine 2 scenarios
1) in one place someone composed music and want to share it (publish it).
yet it is forbidden until his music will be up to standards (in composition) and until he will tests completed therefore judges or some who created these tests will be satisfied...
2) in another place anybody could publish anything regardless of standards and "judges" opinions ?

in which place will be progress and in which will be decline?
will testing, judgement help or prevent progress in this area?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:00 pm

or another scenarios:
1 teacher will give pupils information (note that different students have different abilities, different characters etc.)
then teacher will ask all students to do certain tests, build with certain standards - some students will succeed, some fail...
2. teacher will give pupils information and then ask them to complete different creative tasks on the basis of this information - will it be same students who will succeed and fail?
3. could be teacher himself wrong too? and judge tests in a wrong way?
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:06 pm

Yeah, a child with the flu will test more poorly than that same kid when he's healthy. And if his parents are divorcing and he's in the middle of it, the same. That child may have effectively dropped out during the months when he or she is processing this. This is not an example of "having an excuse for everything". It's entirely normative and to be expected. "My mother is sick in the hospital with cancer" "Billy, you have an excuse for everything".

Testing "is not always valid". It's part of the story. Which is not saying that testing should never be done. You have to use a little nuance, no? Rognvald's 'scientism' doesn't allow for that.
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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:22 pm

and Math and Social Studies?
what about social studies in different societies?
tests in these could completely contradict to each other?

and could we judge fish by her ability to climb trees?
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lagartija
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by lagartija » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:57 pm

The thing about testing for "aptitude" that bothers me the most, is that when you test children, they are not fully developed and it is well known that children develop at different rates. This is not to say that there is not an average stage of development in a child of a certain age....only that to decide what that child will be capable of as an adult cannot be truly determined. If the child has not yet learned to value tests and does not yet understand the consequences of how the results will be used to "guide" their lives, or if the child is ill, or the parents are in the middle of conflict, do you really expect that the results of the tests will be accurate? That type of test puts too much value on a one time event. Why not take into account other events, such as the child's performance and leadership in different classroom tasks? Not all people sit tests well. Some are better at taking tests. So do we consider the only "smart" children to be those who are good test takers? To me, this does not measure their creativity or their ability to do tasks requiring something other than repeating factoids and ideas that have been put to them in the classroom. That type of test may yield information about how well a child has absorbed material that has been taught. In that way, a test result is useful knowledge for the teacher to have...to see what concepts they did not get across to their students. But to use a test to determine what they will be capable of as an adult seems unconscionable to me.
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lagartija
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by lagartija » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:12 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:22 pm
and Math and Social Studies?
what about social studies in different societies?
tests in these could completely contradict to each other?

and could we judge fish by her ability to climb trees?
IQ tests are notoriously biased in favor of the dominant culture in which they are given. They reflect the biases of the test makers.

One of the questions from tests given in the 1940s shows the nature of bias in IQ tests. The question was, "What color is milk?"
It gave a list of colors. Included in the list was white. They also included blue. The kids from poor families that could not buy fresh milk answered "blue", because the dry milk powder that was used to make their milk did not have the fat in it that made milk look white, it had a bluish tint. The kids from affluent families answered "white", because the whole milk that they drank at home had the cream in it and looked white. The answer was "white" and those who chose "blue" were marked incorrect.
That particular question was removed. There was another question that was answered "incorrectly" by native Hawaiians, but I don't remember it at the moment. In any case, this type of test always has some sort of bias and that is what needs to be recognized. It tests how well you understand the dominant culture and that isn't a bad thing in that you can't help someone learn to function better in that society unless you find out what it is that might hold them back. That is not the same as using the results to decide whether or not they are "smart enough" to learn something as an adult. Learning is lifelong, it doesn't end when you walk out the school room door.
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:45 am

Andrei: "and could we judge fish by her ability to climb trees?"

I just heard about frozen iguanas falling out of trees in Florida during this recent cold snap. My condolences to Lagartija! Anyway, some guy who thought that iguana meat was a delicacy stopped to pick up several that were just lying there frozen on the road and put them in his car for cooking later. With the heater on. Suddenly he had a car full of angry iguanas thrashing about and crashed his car. I didn't hear what happened next. Maybe the iguanas ended up having the guy for dinner.

So, that's a test that somebody flunked!
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by chiral3 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:52 pm

In Latin countries I've heard them described as "tree chickens". Of course they are plentiful and... taste like chicken.

That reminds me of a childhood acquaintance who was sad over the passing of his snake. He dug it up after we suggested that since it is cold blooded, and December, and given that he often brought it outside, the snake may only be sluggish. The snake lived longer than I kept up with the individual.
"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect" - Margaret Mitchell

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lagartija
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by lagartija » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:24 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:45 am
Andrei: "and could we judge fish by her ability to climb trees?"

I just heard about frozen iguanas falling out of trees in Florida during this recent cold snap. My condolences to Lagartija! Anyway, some guy who thought that iguana meat was a delicacy stopped to pick up several that were just lying there frozen on the road and put them in his car for cooking later. With the heater on. Suddenly he had a car full of angry iguanas thrashing about and crashed his car. I didn't hear what happened next. Maybe the iguanas ended up having the guy for dinner.

So, that's a test that somebody flunked!
Yes, I have been following that story with concern. :| I have also been following the plight of cold stunned sea turtles that are being rescued in the Gulf of Mexico.

I know that people in some countries eat the iguanas. :cry: I would not do that, but in some countries they eat puppies, too. Humans are opportunistic omnivores.

As for the guy who had the iguanas 🦎 in his car, I hope they all escaped! :twisted:
When the sun shines, bask.
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Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:11 pm

I would like to share a story about my early teaching experiences in the 70's when I taught in Chicago's Black and Hispanic Ghetto schools. It was a time of much racial discord and prevalent daily violence as it is very much today. The schools had metal detectors at each entrance/exit, armed police officers on every floor with classrooms locked down electronically once school began. The teachers had a panic button in every classroom if a situation became dangerous which often was the case. The teachers were predominately Black and from "no name" Southern colleges and it was my opinion ,at the time and even today, that they were for the most part incompetent. However, unlike many White teachers who refused duty at those schools, the Black teachers showed up for school. The school, when I arrived, had test scores in reading and math that were 3 to 4 grades below national levels. And, for good reason since not only were the teachers ill prepared/educated but the continual mayhem in the classrooms was beyond the pale of reasoning for any education to take place. After an interview with the principal, I only accepted the position with the understanding that I would have complete autonomous control of the classroom and the ability to remove dangerous and unruly students when it effected the education of those willing to learn. I also made it clear that there would be no grading on the Bell Curve and we would use national standards data to determine our success or failure which would mean that previous "honor roll" students would be re-evaluated by objective criteria. The previous "feel good" mentality would be replaced with honest evaluations. The bottom line was that after a year I was able to raise about 40% of the class to 2-3 years behind national standards while the remaining 60% were at the old levels or slightly above. They had never had these results in this school before and administrators from the Chicago Board of Education came to visit my classrooms to see what I was doing to get these results. The answer was simple: all feeble excuses, feel-good hype, self-worth evaluations and psycho-babble concepts of education and learning were replaced with simple, functional proven educational methods. They offered me tenure after 1 year and a fast track to administration but my life was morphing in other directions and I left at the end of the year. However, the experience has remained with me for life and the understanding that there is no substitute for real learning and competence in any endeavor in life. And does this not apply to Music? . . when a student/musician is clearly unprepared to competently play a piece of music yet believes he/she is making progress when they cannot even play a simple song cleanly. So much of Life is interconnected. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

RaajShinde
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by RaajShinde » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:38 pm

Hi, Andrei,
I have to be careful with my comments since I want to be informative rather than didactic. My experiences in life are very similar to yours but I believe there are many ways to make a good soup. In life, there are Left and Right brained individuals and this determines from a biological perspective how we think and act in life as well as how we approach the Arts: Music, Writing and Visual Art. Written Music, as we see it on the page, is similar to an algebraic/geometric problem. It needs to be decoded to unlock the answer/Music. However, the performance of Music, for me, is the antithesis of a math problem in that a good performance requires much more than a cold reading but rather the total sum of a performer's life experiences, both musically and experientially, to produce a good performance. We see it quite clearly in some performers who, perhaps, a case could be made for Left and Right-brained performers: John William: right-brained; Ricardo Gallen: left-brained I believe are fair examples. I would also go out on a limb to generalize and say that musicians from Latin America(Spain/South America/Mexico/Central America) and many Eastern European musicians play with a more left-brained approach than Central and Northern European players who, in my opinion, are more right-brained. Of course, with all things in life, there are exceptions and we are not talking about exceptions but rather generalities. The bottom line, however, is always the performance and the best way to determine how you play is to play a simple song where the musicians interpretation cannot be clouded with frenetic flourishes and rapid-fire tempo but rather must be expressed in a simple line that truly tests the essence of each note and the breath of life given to each melodic line. Playing again . . .Rognvald
The whole "Left and Right Brain" idea came out of Roger Sperry's work on the corpus callosum and epilepsy in the 1960s. The Neuroscience community in general has never bought into this idea that analytical types are primarily left-brain dominant and creatives are primarily right-brain dominant. There are several studies that debunk this myth. In fact, Karl Pribham has advanced a theory that the brain is holographic in nature and that information storage and perception happen through a series of Fourier-like transforms in the frequency domain.

Left-brain, right-brain is pseudo-science, at best and not, IMHO, a great foundation to base any sort of analysis on.

Cheers!
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:34 pm

RaajShinde wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:23 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:38 pm

Hi, Andrei,
I have to be careful with my comments since I want to be informative rather than didactic. My experiences in life are very similar to yours but I believe there are many ways to make a good soup. In life, there are Left and Right brained individuals and this determines from a biological perspective how we think and act in life as well as how we approach the Arts: Music, Writing and Visual Art. Written Music, as we see it on the page, is similar to an algebraic/geometric problem. It needs to be decoded to unlock the answer/Music. However, the performance of Music, for me, is the antithesis of a math problem in that a good performance requires much more than a cold reading but rather the total sum of a performer's life experiences, both musically and experientially, to produce a good performance. We see it quite clearly in some performers who, perhaps, a case could be made for Left and Right-brained performers: John William: right-brained; Ricardo Gallen: left-brained I believe are fair examples. I would also go out on a limb to generalize and say that musicians from Latin America(Spain/South America/Mexico/Central America) and many Eastern European musicians play with a more left-brained approach than Central and Northern European players who, in my opinion, are more right-brained. Of course, with all things in life, there are exceptions and we are not talking about exceptions but rather generalities. The bottom line, however, is always the performance and the best way to determine how you play is to play a simple song where the musicians interpretation cannot be clouded with frenetic flourishes and rapid-fire tempo but rather must be expressed in a simple line that truly tests the essence of each note and the breath of life given to each melodic line. Playing again . . .Rognvald
The whole "Left and Right Brain" idea came out of Roger Sperry's work on the corpus callosum and epilepsy in the 1960s. The Neuroscience community in general has never bought into this idea that analytical types are primarily left-brain dominant and creatives are primarily right-brain dominant. There are several studies that debunk this myth. In fact, Karl Pribham has advanced a theory that the brain is holographic in nature and that information storage and perception happen through a series of Fourier-like transforms in the frequency domain.

Left-brain, right-brain is pseudo-science, at best and not, IMHO, a great foundation to base any sort of analysis on.

Cheers!

Hi, Raaj,
I think it might best be said that lateralization is, in fact, scientifically provable. I think we are edging into thread drift for the topic but our readers may see a brief explanation of its existence in the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateraliz ... n_function Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by RaajShinde » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:45 am

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:34 pm
Hi, Raaj,
I think it might best be said that lateralization is, in fact, scientifically provable. I think we are edging into thread drift for the topic but our readers may see a brief explanation of its existence in the following article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateraliz ... n_function Playing again . . . Rognvald
Ok, Rognvald. Whatever you say! :D

I find the way you do “science” fascinating, to say the least!

Cheers!
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

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