Segovia and Jazz Scales

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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PeteJ
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Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:07 pm

At the start of my CG adventure I learned scales the Segovia way. Later I found that these fingerings are not very useful in jazz/rock. Are there any jazz players here who could recommend a Segovia-like collection of basic scales relevant to jazz imrov? (Not a book on jazz but just a set of scales for regular practice). Thanks.

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RobMacKillop
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by RobMacKillop » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:33 pm

Check out the Jimmy Bruno book on scales, I think it's called Six Essential Fingerings. Many jazz guitarists recommend it.

Rognvald
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by Rognvald » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 pm

Pete,
I'm going to suggest something with which some might differ but it has been my approach to scales(Jazz and Classical) that work for me(beyond the Segovia scales) and allows me to get intimate with all strings and positions on the guitar. Start with any string(easier with low E initially) and play scales starting with the 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd, then 4th finger left hand as the starting point and get a sense of the patterns you are creating. Experiment with fingerings and positions and adjust accordingly. Some will not be logical ie;) 4th finger/1st-3rd position but begin at 4th position/4th finger and create 1-6 string scales. For example: Play an A flat major scale on low E/A string only starting with the 4th finger/4th position, then E,A and D strings etc and find the patterns that are logical and comfortable to you. Always go to the highest note possible on the neck in every pattern. Not only will you develop fluency but wherever you're at in a song, you'll be able to play around the scale. You can do the same thing with chords playing major, minor, augmented, diminished and all the possibilities. I suppose you can "learn" to play Jazz as they have been teaching in the universities for the last 40 plus years but, in most cases, they are producing music machines rather than musicians. You have to become intimate with your instrument. Then you have to learn to play songs. Then it's up to you what grows from there. I have a respectable "on the job" background in Music theory and composition but the magic happens when you play. And, the greatest moments happen during a gig when you're feeding off the other musicians in an ensemble or even from yourself when the Muses call. Music is an Art, not a Science and you can hear a scientist within the first few bars of whatever he/she plays. Here's a little tasty treat after too much talk. Enjoy . . . Rognvald
https://youtu.be/0Q8ZV6Ppw-c
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:16 pm

Thanks for the replies.

The Bruno approach goes against the grain with me but I'll look into it some more. Good advice from Rognvald also. I was wondering if there is a jazz equivalent to the Segovia scale-book that just runs through various scales and fingerings, not so much a tutor or method but just typical ways of playing the scales.

Very much agree about being able to play scales starting from different scale-steps and positions. I could usefully practice this for ten years.

Smith
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by Smith » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:18 pm

I have a pretty cool book I found used called
Complete Chords And Progressions - For All Instruments by Bugs Bower (Charles Colin, New York, 1952)

It’s cool because it is like a regular scale book except all the chords are already broken down in to various scales.

There the usual major and minor and whole tone scales.
Then there is the whole gamut (in all keys) of augmented scales, dom 7 scales, dim 7 scales, min 6 with added 9th scales.

Looks fun but I’ve never played through it, but now I will look at it since you brought it up. Thx.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:55 am

Thanks. I'll check it out.

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georgemarousi
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by georgemarousi » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:36 am

Hi Pete,

Once upon a time, my electric guitar teacher learned me the scales on one simple rule: 3 notes on every string - no open strings.

You can even found these out yourself. These few "modes" that are created are repeatable, and you can easily later improvise on them, or play exercises on like: 1,2,3, 2,3,4, 3,4,5 ... etc or 1234, 2345, 3456 ... etc, up and down the fretboard. Very good basis!

hope you find this helpful ! :casque: :bye:
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Panagi Brothers 1970
Juan Martinez nr 55 2014 (the comeback)
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PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:12 pm

Good thought, thanks.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 pm

Hmm. Maybe the book I'm thinking of doesn't exist.

DaveLeeNC
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by DaveLeeNC » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:31 pm

georgemarousi wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:36 am
Hi Pete,

Once upon a time, my electric guitar teacher learned me the scales on one simple rule: 3 notes on every string - no open strings.

You can even found these out yourself. These few "modes" that are created are repeatable, and you can easily later improvise on them, or play exercises on like: 1,2,3, 2,3,4, 3,4,5 ... etc or 1234, 2345, 3456 ... etc, up and down the fretboard. Very good basis!

hope you find this helpful ! :casque: :bye:
You should hop over to one of the many jazz guitar forums and have this discussion (3 notes per scale - 3nps) vs. another popular system (CAGED). Or just do a YOUTUBE search on CAGED vs 3 NPS. People can get pretty passionate about this.

dave
1984 Jesus Marzal cedar CG
1971 Sherry-Brener (Cedar) Garcia No. 1 CG
1975 Gibson ES-175D Achtop Electric
2016 Eastman AR905CE-BD Carved Archtop Electric

cgratham
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by cgratham » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:44 pm

Hi Pete,
Another option is William Leavitt's system from the Modern Method for guitar (Volumes 1, 2, and 3) (Berklee). He has 12 different major scale patterns but they are based of off these 4 primary "Types" with additional 1st or 4th finger stretches. And there are corresponding harmonic and melodic minor shapes for each major pattern.
william-leavitt-a-modern-method-for-guitar-vol-2-6-638.jpg
Chris
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PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:17 pm

Thanks cgratham. This is the sort of thing I meant - scales patterns that are useful in soloing - which the Segovia scales are not, or not much. But also I was hoping for a book that went beyond major/minor and into more exotic places and showed the way a jazz soloist would employ scale runs. There are plenty of tutors covering the styles but I haven't seen a dedicated scale-book.

Andrew Barrett
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by Andrew Barrett » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:59 pm

I would second Leavitt. In addition to the four above, I play one that in first position would be F Major, I believe Leavitt's books refer to this as type as 1A. He lays out fingerings for minor variants across the later parts of his method.

cgratham
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by cgratham » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:59 am

Yes, Leavitt's system is very organized. For those who aren't familiar with it, here's some more info.

It is all based on the 4 types which are based entirely in one position (i.e. one finger per fret and no stretches and no slides, no open strings). Types 1 and 4 each have 4 variation/sub-types, types 2 and 3 don't have any. So that adds up to 12 different types per position.

For Type 1, the variations (1A, 1B, 1C, and 1D) go up a 4th sequentially adding only 1st finger stretches. For example, in first position, Type 1 is C major (no stretches), Type 1A is F Major and has first finger stretches on the E strings. Type 1B is Bb Major and adds more stretches. Etc.

Type 4 works on the same principle but going up in 5th intervals and adding only 4th finger stretches. So in first position Type 4 is A Major (no stretches), Type 4A is E Major with one 4th finger stretch, etc).

If one wanted to see the full development of all the major and minor types, Leavitt's Book 2 covers it all.

Chris

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:56 pm

Sounds good, but it seems to cover only major/minor scales.

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