Segovia and Jazz Scales

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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FrankBlack
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by FrankBlack » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:41 am

I'd recommend a search for "matt warnock" "complete guide to jazz guitar scales". Matt is a working musician, a veteran teacher and a Phd. holder in Jazz Performance. He has all the tools for such things and many items on his web site are free. Hope that helps.

Andrew Barrett
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by Andrew Barrett » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:47 am

In terms of scales beyond major/minor Charles Duncan outlines possible fingerings in The Art of Classical Guitar Playing and Classical Guitar 2000

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prawnheed
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by prawnheed » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:24 pm

Check out Rich Cochrane's book: Arpeggio and Scale Resources, A Guitar Encyclopedia.

It's free to download from his website and covers pretty much every possible scale you might want. He mostly uses the CAGED system, but adapting the scales to 3nps or whatever other positional or diagonal system you want is pretty straightforward.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:45 pm

Thanks for the tips. I'll check out these three recommendations.

PS. Done. They all look good. I'd go for Matt Warnock's book but it''s not printed and I don't want an ebook. I've ordered one of the others on amazon.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:25 pm

Andrew Barrett wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:47 am
In terms of scales beyond major/minor Charles Duncan outlines possible fingerings in The Art of Classical Guitar Playing and Classical Guitar 2000
I ordered the first one on Thursday and received it on Saturday. By the end of the day my playing was already a lot better. It's a fabulous book! I've been playing fro decades, had many lessons years ago, studied music at Uni and used to teach (poorly) for a living, and this book has taught me more in a day than I would have thought possible.

I''ve always had tone and nail problems as well as RH insecurity when performing and not much in the way of speed. Just a day with this book and my tone is more authoritative, my RH feels more secure, my tremolo is (at last!) not prone to clumsy errors and, just as the author says, his method brings with it greater psychological security, less string noise, far fewer errors, better legato and a musical tone. It's going to transform my playing over the next month or two. Why didn't i read something like this decades ago? Why didn't anyone tell me this stuff long ago when I was taking the instrument seriously?

Many thanks for the recommendation, Andrew. I'd highly recommended this book to guitarists everywhere and might start a thread to do so.

For years I've wondered why I cannot achieve a tone and attack that matches my playing, which is not too bad, and never seem to be able to get my nails right. At last I see how to do it. Hell, forty years playing and I only just learned how to play one single note. It's quite exciting since everything I play suddenly got better at once with just an hour or two of work, and should go on doing so.

It isn't the scale book I was looking for but much more useful.

ronjazz
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by ronjazz » Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:28 pm

Pete, you may be seeking a "guitar pill". Leavitt's work also explores whose-tone and diminished scales, lays out modes, and is detailed in explaining which scales go with which chords, but it's a 3-volume work, which includes exhaustive arpeggio studies, reading and chord work, and theory. I know of no one book that will provide you with the magic key to scales, though.
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kmurdick
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by kmurdick » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:32 pm

georgemarousi wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:36 am
Hi Pete,

Once upon a time, my electric guitar teacher learned me the scales on one simple rule: 3 notes on every string - no open strings.

You can even found these out yourself. These few "modes" that are created are repeatable, and you can easily later improvise ......
This guy is probably right. The toughest thing about playing jazz guitar is the pick crossing. The guitar does not lend itself to unplanned performance. There is a really good player on youtube who demonstrates triad pairs technique on the guitar. He said it took him six months to get it down, but if he were a pianist he could have done it in a day. Again, it's a picking problem. Even a pattern as simple C,E,D,F,E,G,F,A....... is not easy on the guitar. Of course you might use Pi or Pm instead of a pick. I know a guy who invented a flat pick that had a rubber band going through it. He could flat pick or finger pick at will.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:52 pm

Thanks. I'm still nosing around.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:37 am

ronjazz wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:28 pm
Pete, you may be seeking a "guitar pill". Leavitt's work also explores whose-tone and diminished scales, lays out modes, and is detailed in explaining which scales go with which chords, but it's a 3-volume work, which includes exhaustive arpeggio studies, reading and chord work, and theory. I know of no one book that will provide you with the magic key to scales, though.
I bought the first one and found it too basic which is annoying. I should have checked the contents more carefully. I'll check out the index of the later volumes.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:30 pm

prawnheed wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:24 pm
Check out Rich Cochrane's book: Arpeggio and Scale Resources, A Guitar Encyclopedia.

It's free to download from his website and covers pretty much every possible scale you might want. He mostly uses the CAGED system, but adapting the scales to 3nps or whatever other positional or diagonal system you want is pretty straightforward.
I've been through this. It's great that it's a free download but i can't make head or tail of it. He uses chord charts rather than notation and to me it's a muddle. There seem to be no pieces that actually use the scales discussed and no practice aids. A scale reference book I'd say, rather than a practical method. It'll be great for some people but not me.

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prawnheed
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by prawnheed » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:44 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:30 pm
prawnheed wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:24 pm
Check out Rich Cochrane's book: Arpeggio and Scale Resources, A Guitar Encyclopedia.

It's free to download from his website and covers pretty much every possible scale you might want. He mostly uses the CAGED system, but adapting the scales to 3nps or whatever other positional or diagonal system you want is pretty straightforward.
I've been through this. It's great that it's a free download but i can't make head or tail of it. He uses chord charts rather than notation and to me it's a muddle. There seem to be no pieces that actually use the scales discussed and no practice aids. A scale reference book I'd say, rather than a practical method. It'll be great for some people but not me.
Yes, it is a reference book. He calls it an encyclopedia afterall.

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:02 pm

prawnheed wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:44 pm
Yes, it is a reference book. He calls it an encyclopedia afterall.
Doh!

chiral3
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by chiral3 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:17 pm

A while back I modified all the Segovia scales and merged them with modal exercises I used to do for jazz/electric. I am repeating this from memory as I type and don’t have any sheets to post, ..., but as an example take the first Segovia scale. At the end of the ascending run slide up into the 7th position, stay in that position, and decend in D Dorian. I’d run this circularly back and forth as an exercise. Picking your anchor points on the FB you can run around the fretboard as a modal exercise and return to the original Segovia scale. You can get pretty creative with this if you want.
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Todd Tipton
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by Todd Tipton » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:21 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:07 pm
At the start of my CG adventure I learned scales the Segovia way. Later I found that these fingerings are not very useful in jazz/rock. Are there any jazz players here who could recommend a Segovia-like collection of basic scales relevant to jazz imrov? (Not a book on jazz but just a set of scales for regular practice). Thanks.
I may be stating the obvious, or something different. I have no way of knowing if this will be any use to you. Something that most guitarist outside of classical seem to understand is taking advantage of the visual aspects of the guitar. For me, I don't find the Segovia scales useful at all. On the other hand, Shearer's old scale book is over 250 pages. The "glue" that holds the book together is the CAGED system. Yet it is never mentioned once. Not a single diagram.

I think it is important to develop the ability to see those scale patterns in your sleep. For electric playing, I think the 7 three notes per string (3nps) patterns are just as important. I believe an electric guitarist needs to be able to move freely, connecting all the scale forms, and also being able to freely move back and forth from CAGED to 3nps. I believe it is important to use these scale patterns to then be able to play all major and natural minor scales to include all the modes. Harmonic minor is also important. Just as important as the 3nps scale forms for major scales are also the melodic minor patterns. Within those patterns are MORE modes used frequently in jazz and often rock.

Let me give a super easy example. Think of learning various scale patterns in open C major. While we might take it for granted, it is the ability to easily see that open C major scale form that allows us to give our undivided attention to everything else (instead of worrying about where our fingers go). Likewise, early in my training I remember jumping to G major in 7th position and working in Shearer's scale book. What Shearer never mentioned, and I found to be a necessary prerequisite, was the CAGED system. Being able to easily see the particular scale form before I even started was important. As a result, it was no more difficult that open C major.

With jazz and rock playing, I believe it is absolutely necessary to take advantage of the visual aspect of the guitar. Being best friends with the shapes of all of those scales (melodic minor and all the modes included) seems like a necessary first step.

Disclaimer: Jazz is not my forte.
Dr. Todd Tipton, classical guitarist
Cincinnati, OH, USA (available via Skype)

PeteJ
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Re: Segovia and Jazz Scales

Post by PeteJ » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:24 pm

These two recent posts are very interesting and helpful but I don't fully understand them. I'm on top of Bach and Beethoven but start struggling when we enter the 20th century. I should probably book a few lessons with a jazz player. I've never seen a book that works for me. Surely there is a book of solo pieces and studies somewhere that takes players through the modes. If not there is a gap in the market.

I'm not interested so much from a playing perspective. I'll never be a jazz soloist and it's too late to become a rock guitar God. But I'd like to explore the use of modes in composing. I seem to have some sort of mental block on this topic.

Is Shearer a recommendation? Does he deal with the modes and talk us through them?

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