Are You a Slave to the Score?

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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davekear
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by davekear » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:09 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:54 pm
davekear wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:10 pm
Here's a guy who ain't slave to nothin. Here's a rare video of Ted Greene teaching baroque improvisation.
For those of you who don't know Ted Greene, here's a treat. Probably the best teacher I ever had.
R.I.P. Ted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkuo2384ZN4
Dave,
I just watched the video. The important aspect of the video, for me, was that like all good musicians, Ted understands music from a theoretical basis and uses this knowledge to enhance his playing. I've always been puzzled how some players reach a fairly high level of technical performance and do not understand what they are playing. When you have the ability to get into the composers head, so to speak, it gives you the ability to become more intimate with the music and render a more authentic interpretation of his work. Does Ted strictly play electric or does he also play CG? Playing again . . . Rognvald
Ted Greene died in 2005. He's a legend among "jazz" guitarists, and many other guitarists and musicians as well. He set a very high bar that very few have reached. He was a great teacher, and left a brilliant musical legacy. He mostly played his Telecaster.

Wuuthrad
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Wuuthrad » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:22 am

In actuality, when all the chips are on the table, and the proof is in the pudding, that is (hopefully) being served with Silver Spoons, and after all is said and done;

"I'm a Slave to the Rhythm"

I have chosen out of a sense of dignity and good taste to spare all of ye fine denizens the aforementioned you tube-age.

And to quote the "Man" (one of them, in "my book" anyway):

"All that is needed... is an extra touch of magic... an illumination, a flash of inspiration, and if you don't have it, invent it: a particular timbre, a dynamic, an element of dazzling surprise, a chord brought especially to the fore, etc. If this moment of magic does not exist in both composition and performance, the work is nothing more than pure routine."

- Leo Brouwer
👍

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:00 pm

"All that is needed... is an extra touch of magic... an illumination, a flash of inspiration, and if you don't have it, invent it: a particular timbre, a dynamic, an element of dazzling surprise, a chord brought especially to the fore, etc. If this moment of magic does not exist in both composition and performance, the work is nothing more than pure routine."

- Leo Brouwer
Nice!
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:49 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:00 pm
"All that is needed... is an extra touch of magic... an illumination, a flash of inspiration, and if you don't have it, invent it: a particular timbre, a dynamic, an element of dazzling surprise, a chord brought especially to the fore, etc. If this moment of magic does not exist in both composition and performance, the work is nothing more than pure routine."

- Leo Brouwer
Nice!
well...I think it is a bit more complicated...
than just throw a couple of "special chords" and you've got magic..

yes one need an inspiration! -
but calculated and guaranteed inspiration?
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:07 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:49 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:00 pm
"All that is needed... is an extra touch of magic... an illumination, a flash of inspiration, and if you don't have it, invent it: a particular timbre, a dynamic, an element of dazzling surprise, a chord brought especially to the fore, etc. If this moment of magic does not exist in both composition and performance, the work is nothing more than pure routine."

- Leo Brouwer
Nice!
well...
really? - just throw a couple of "special chords" and you've got magic?
and who will decide if there is a magic or not? Academy? AI?
Leo Brouwer himself?

yes one need an inspiration! -
but calculated and guaranteed inspiration?
Hi, Andrei,
I wouldn't dare argue that point with you since I agree with your comments but what I hoped people would glean from this statement is to look for places throughout a piece of music that can be played more creatively and expressively rather than a dry reading/performance of the piece . . . especially if you are not a very creative/expressive player. True inspiration and creativity CANNOT be taught and is truly unique to only some human's beings . . . or if you prefer . . .genetic. I hope this makes more sense to you. Playing again . . .Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:15 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:07 pm
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:49 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:00 pm


Nice!
well...
really? - just throw a couple of "special chords" and you've got magic?
and who will decide if there is a magic or not? Academy? AI?
Leo Brouwer himself?

yes one need an inspiration! -
but calculated and guaranteed inspiration?
Hi, Andrei,
I wouldn't dare argue that point with you since I agree with your comments but what I hoped people would glean from this statement is to look for places throughout a piece of music that can be played more creatively and expressively rather than a dry reading/performance of the piece . . . especially if you are not a very creative/expressive player. True inspiration and creativity CANNOT be taught and is truly unique to only some human's beings . . . or if you prefer . . .genetic. I hope this makes more sense to you. Playing again . . .Rognvald
Yes I agree.
Inspiration is not taught in school...

maybe what someone could do more or less is try to free himself
many people will put so many laws and rules and taboos on themselves that it will becoming very difficult to freely express yourself (in music way in this case)...
one have to lose fear of his own creativity ...
that may help... maybe...
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:02 pm

"one have to lose fear of his own creativity ..."

There are some scary things kicking around in the ol' creative unconscious! The psychologist Winnicott writes about aggressive/destructive impulses playing a role in creative work--impulses that typically aren't well-integrated into our conscious psychology. Our whole selves include some nasty bits!
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

riffmeister
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by riffmeister » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:56 pm

No. I will sometimes reinterpret to suit my personal taste.

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:02 pm
"one have to lose fear of his own creativity ..."

There are some scary things kicking around in the ol' creative unconscious! The psychologist Winnicott writes about aggressive/destructive impulses playing a role in creative work--impulses that typically aren't well-integrated into our conscious psychology. Our whole selves include some nasty bits!

Yes, Jeff,
Hemingway, Poe, Van Gogh, Weldon Kees, Jerzy Kosinski, Frida Kahlo, Sylvia Plath, Sonny Criss, Frank Rosolino are a few that come to mind. Creative people, in my opinion, are hard-wired differently from the Herd. They dance to a different drummer and much of their angst is how they perceive existence in relationship to the conventions of the Herd. For some, termination of life is far preferable, at a certain point, than to be suffocated emotionally on a daily basis. . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:22 pm

Well actually most of those artists that you mentioned were pretty damaged individuals. I don't think that Plath and Hemingway committed suicide in order to escape the herd; rather they were in a ton of emotional distress. Plath and Van Gogh at least suffered from periods of psychosis. Best not to romanticize this.

Kafka and Ashberry are examples of artists who craved boring and normal lives as being emotionally conducive to their creative work. They needed a routine! Many artists want that--plain vanilla on the outside. But others seem to exhibit a lot of self destructive behaviour--alcoholism in particular. Maybe they can get too close to their aggressive/destructive non-integrated side.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:18 pm

Jeff,
Here's an interesting article from the BBC that a friend sent me this morning that pertains to this subject. Playing again . . .Rognvald www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-d ... ing-clever
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:01 pm

posted by mistake sorry :)
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:47 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:18 pm
Jeff,
Here's an interesting article from the BBC that a friend sent me this morning that pertains to this subject. Playing again . . .Rognvald www.bbc.com/future/story/20150413-the-d ... ing-clever
Interesting article for sure.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

Godlovitch
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Godlovitch » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:23 am

Are we perhaps meant - by the time published notation for classical guitar became commonplace - to understand the very popular Theme & Variations format as presenting a set of options, suggestions, opportunities for the player to carry on inventing? It's difficult to distinguish this consideration too much from the kindred suggestions which early and subsequent recording offered and continues to offers to rock and jazz players, say.

But if this makes any sense, it prompts anyone to re-evaluate the Score - at least, that notation laid down at a time when high fidelity might not have been quite the virtue it became. Have we evidence, for example, that the keyboard pieces we've inherited in score by Beethoven and Chopin were played in their time by their authors note-for-note? Certainly, there are tales of wonderful improvisational festivals offered by the likes of J.S. Bach and S.L. Weiss. Alas, we can fully appreciate the very revolution recording caused.

RaajShinde
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by RaajShinde » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:56 am

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 pm

Yes, Jeff,
Hemingway, Poe, Van Gogh, Weldon Kees, Jerzy Kosinski, Frida Kahlo, Sylvia Plath, Sonny Criss, Frank Rosolino are a few that come to mind. Creative people, in my opinion, are hard-wired differently from the Herd. They dance to a different drummer and much of their angst is how they perceive existence in relationship to the conventions of the Herd. For some, termination of life is far preferable, at a certain point, than to be suffocated emotionally on a daily basis. . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
A most interesting thread that I've been following and finally just had to jump in! :)

I think one has to be very careful with these sorts of arguments. Many highly creative individuals, especially in music and other creative arts, have been individuals "wired differently" if one chooses to define "wired differently" as fighting serious issues of psychosis, addiction, etc. It does not make sense to generalize from there that ALL creative individuals are thus "wired differently". Many of the unsung heroes of science, technology, mathematics, for example, are/were highly creative individuals (who in many cases were talented musicians, painters, etc.) that were not known to be "wired differently" by the above definition. It is easy to confuse correlation with causality.

Also, your argument that genetics determines creativity is something that I personally find highly problematic. Can you cite any scientific evidence that supports this assertion? Given that creativity is more than likely a function of consciousness and that consciousness is perhaps shaped by environmental stimuli, the stretch to a genetic link is an interesting hypothesis. Unfortunately, that argument, taken to ridiculous lengths, leads to ideas like Eugenics and also, very sadly, to the gates of places like Auschwitz and Dachau. I think most reasonable humans agree that those are places of profound darkness, places that humans should stay away from. I say most because in my country, in this day and age, there are people who believe otherwise, as we have not doubt all seen in recent coverage. Also, I find your statement "For some, termination of life is far preferable, at a certain point, than to be suffocated emotionally on a daily basis." disturbing in the extreme, if you are suggesting this is a what creatives who feel this way should consider doing. People make those choices and, at the end of the day, it is, I suppose, their choice. But it is a choice and justification of this as somehow an option for creative people is a very dangerous idea. One can choose not to "be suffocated emotionally on a daily basis."
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

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