Are You a Slave to the Score?

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Smudger5150
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Smudger5150 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:35 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:28 am
Lawler wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:12 am
Regarding creativity and written composition, this is a good listen. http://youtube.com/watch?v=ccfrLZu3ikA It's a vid. I suggest you turn off the picture and just listen.
picture was good too! :)
I amazed what pictures someone could see in music [media]https://youtu.be/jVrxuuNwDAs[/media]
Great vid and music. Where did the images come from? Did you create them too?
"Music washes away the dust of every day life." Art Blakey

"If I don’t practice for a day, I know it. If I don’t practice for two days, the critics know it. And if I don’t practice for three days, the public knows it." Louis Armstrong

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:36 am

Wonderful Andrei! Now I see why you need to stand when you play! or dance!
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:43 am

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:36 am
Wonderful Andrei! Now I see why you need to stand when you play! or dance!
Smudger5150 wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:35 am
AndreiKrylov wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:28 am
Lawler wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:12 am
Regarding creativity and written composition, this is a good listen. http://youtube.com/watch?v=ccfrLZu3ikA It's a vid. I suggest you turn off the picture and just listen.
picture was good too! :)
I amazed what pictures someone could see in music [media]https://youtu.be/jVrxuuNwDAs[/media]
Great vid and music. Where did the images come from? Did you create them too?
Thanks! I have no idea about images... after I publish music - it lives by itself and some folks made videos with it...I wish I could make such videos, but.. mine is only music :)
here is my other classical guitar solo and someone else pictures..
[media]https://youtu.be/FOMH4ySfods[/media]
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:57 pm

RaajShinde wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:56 am
Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:40 pm

Yes, Jeff,
Hemingway, Poe, Van Gogh, Weldon Kees, Jerzy Kosinski, Frida Kahlo, Sylvia Plath, Sonny Criss, Frank Rosolino are a few that come to mind. Creative people, in my opinion, are hard-wired differently from the Herd. They dance to a different drummer and much of their angst is how they perceive existence in relationship to the conventions of the Herd. For some, termination of life is far preferable, at a certain point, than to be suffocated emotionally on a daily basis. . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
A most interesting thread that I've been following and finally just had to jump in! :)

I think one has to be very careful with these sorts of arguments. Many highly creative individuals, especially in music and other creative arts, have been individuals "wired differently" if one chooses to define "wired differently" as fighting serious issues of psychosis, addiction, etc. It does not make sense to generalize from there that ALL creative individuals are thus "wired differently". Many of the unsung heroes of science, technology, mathematics, for example, are/were highly creative individuals (who in many cases were talented musicians, painters, etc.) that were not known to be "wired differently" by the above definition. It is easy to confuse correlation with causality.

Also, your argument that genetics determines creativity is something that I personally find highly problematic. Can you cite any scientific evidence that supports this assertion? Given that creativity is more than likely a function of consciousness and that consciousness is perhaps shaped by environmental stimuli, the stretch to a genetic link is an interesting hypothesis. Unfortunately, that argument, taken to ridiculous lengths, leads to ideas like Eugenics and also, very sadly, to the gates of places like Auschwitz and Dachau. I think most reasonable humans agree that those are places of profound darkness, places that humans should stay away from. I say most because in my country, in this day and age, there are people who believe otherwise, as we have not doubt all seen in recent coverage. Also, I find your statement "For some, termination of life is far preferable, at a certain point, than to be suffocated emotionally on a daily basis." disturbing in the extreme, if you are suggesting this is a what creatives who feel this way should consider doing. People make those choices and, at the end of the day, it is, I suppose, their choice. But it is a choice and justification of this as somehow an option for creative people is a very dangerous idea. One can choose not to "be suffocated emotionally on a daily basis."
Raaj,
I don't know how you leaped to Auschwitz/Dachau from this conversation, but let me answer this very simply and get back on track. A man by the name of Charles Darwin wrote a definitive book called the "Origin of the Species" which details ,better than I, the concept of genetics. If you dispute this . . . you dispute mainstream Science. A far as making the leap from the size and shape of a bird's beak to the acquisition of inherited traits like the propensity for Music or Creativity, you would have to ignore milennia of families that exhibit talents which are clearly genetically based. In Music, of course, we have the Bach, Haydn, Mozart, and Mendelsohn families of musicians, among others, where clearly genetics played a major part. And, there are others too numerous to mention in this discussion. Those who wish to dismiss Science for 21st Century Psycho-babble are free to do so however, they must choose in the process to ignore mainstream Science for the last 100 plus years. There is no greater force in one's life than their genetic legacy and there is no difference in the inheritance of intelligence and talents than there is in one's physical size, hair color or bone structure. It's all in the soup. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Rognvald wrote:... you would have to ignore milennia of families that exhibit talents which are clearly genetically based. In Music, of course, we have the Bach, Haydn, Mozart, and Mendelsohn families of musicians, among others, where clearly genetics played a major part.
Rognvald - I am not inclined to throw the baby out with the bath-water but you do seem to be discounting the nurture part of the equation. Can you explain, given their superior musical genes, where the Bach family are now?

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:36 pm

" a man by the name of Charles Darwin wrote a definitive book called the "Origin of the Species" which details ,better than I, the concept of genetics. "

Actually, Darwin didn't know about genes. Never mentions them. He wrote about natural selection and inheritable traits.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

RaajShinde
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by RaajShinde » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:38 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:57 pm

Raaj,
I don't know how you leaped to Auschwitz/Dachau from this conversation, but let me answer this very simply and get back on track. A man by the name of Charles Darwin wrote a definitive book called the "Origin of the Species" which details ,better than I, the concept of genetics. If you dispute this . . . you dispute mainstream Science. A far as making the leap from the size and shape of a bird's beak to the acquisition of inherited traits like the propensity for Music or Creativity, you would have to ignore milennia of families that exhibit talents which are clearly genetically based. In Music, of course, we have the Bach, Haydn, Mozart, and Mendelsohn families of musicians, among others, where clearly genetics played a major part. And, there are others too numerous to mention in this discussion. Those who wish to dismiss Science for 21st Century Psycho-babble are free to do so however, they must choose in the process to ignore mainstream Science for the last 100 plus years. There is no greater force in one's life than their genetic legacy and there is no difference in the inheritance of intelligence and talents than there is in one's physical size, hair color or bone structure. It's all in the soup. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Hi Rognvald,

I thought my reasoning was pretty clear, as outlined in my posting.

Darwin's "Origin of Species" was first published on Nov 14th, 1859. Wilhelm Johannsen coined the term "gene" in 1905. Your mentioning some prominent musical families and jumping to that as proof of a genetic basis is, in my opinion, highly unscientific and purely speculative. Again, if you have any evidence to support these assertions, I would be delighted to be educated. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, correlation does not equal causality. You say "There is no greater force in one's life than their genetic legacy and there is no difference in the inheritance of intelligence and talents than there is in one's physical size, hair color or bone structure". This, with all due respect, is total BS. This is the argument that leads to Auschwitz/Dachau, taken to its ridiculous extreme.

From my limited research, no one has definitely shown that music (or any other similar ability) is only driven by genetics. Also, there is much new research on the role of nutrition, mental attitudes, emotional states, etc. on gene expression, further compounding the problems with your assertions. I think it is very dangerous to make the hypothesis that you are making because it abstracts to a point approaching absurdity. Of course, in my opinion! Your mileage may vary (and clearly does!). It is interesting that you mention Science versus 21st Century Pscho-babble. IMHO, and without meaning any disrespect, I personally think that applies to your hypothesis, in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

Cheers!
-raaj
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:18 pm
Rognvald wrote:... you would have to ignore milennia of families that exhibit talents which are clearly genetically based. In Music, of course, we have the Bach, Haydn, Mozart, and Mendelsohn families of musicians, among others, where clearly genetics played a major part.
Rognvald - I am not inclined to throw the baby out with the bath-water but you do seem to be discounting the nurture part of the equation. Can you explain, given their superior musical genes, where the Bach family are now?

Hi, Mark,
Like all good things in Life, nothing lasts forever. Through continued dilution of the trait in subsequent generations through marriage, the talent was lost or remains dormant until, perhaps, some time in the future it may, once again, reappear. A good example would also be seen in physical traits where generations of tall people become shorter by marriage with shorter mates or a line of blue-eyed people would lose this dominant trait with subsequent marriage with predominately brown eyed mates. I hope this helps. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:43 pm

To Jeff and Raaj,
Of course Darwin's "Origin of the Species" was not a study of genes but it was the foundation and cornerstone for all genetic research in the future based on the multi-varied principles of evolution. It was the door that opened the pathway for all genetic evolutionary Biology which is the accepted principle among all leading scientists and Universities today. And, Raaj, if you choose not to believe this Science then it's your choice. Remember, at one time Galileo was nearly executed for his proposing the sun was the center of our solar system, not the Earth. And, we certainly won't speak about the earth being flat . . I will forever forswear that heresy! In fact, I think I would rather be a slave to the score . . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

soltirefa
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by soltirefa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:48 pm

This, with all due respect, is total BS.
As long as it's with all due respect.

That's sort of like, "I don't want to be rude, but ..." followed by a rude statement.

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:59 pm

Again--and it's the last time I mention this--your conception of genetic determinism is disproved by modern science. Especially since the human genome was finished being mapped. You really need to stop claiming that your position is scientific; it's not.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

RaajShinde
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by RaajShinde » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:12 pm

soltirefa wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:48 pm
This, with all due respect, is total BS.
As long as it's with all due respect.

That's sort of like, "I don't want to be rude, but ..." followed by a rude statement.
Maybe. But the intent was not disrespectful and I thought it was necessary to state that, given the inherent nature of online communication and how easy it is to misinterpret postings. And trust me, I can be very clearly expressive when I want to be intentionally disrespectful. :o

Cheers!
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

RaajShinde
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by RaajShinde » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:13 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:59 pm
Again--and it's the last time I mention this--your conception of genetic determinism is disproved by modern science. Especially since the human genome was finished being mapped. You really need to stop claiming that your position is scientific; it's not.
This!

Cheers!
The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:25 pm

There's no question that many characteristics are inherited. This is clear in physical traits. There is also no question that there is great uncertainty as to precisely where one can draw the line between those social, mental, intellectual etc characteristics that are inherited and those that arise from nurture within the same parenting as supplied the genes. As with most things, it may well be the case of a bit of both. With things like musical ability there is certainly no way to prove that a continued genetic line was responsible for a musical dynasty, vs continued nurture, education, family expectation, encouragement etc. My understanding of the current consensus would that not much genetic element would be involved. But it is, to coin a phrase, an evolving subject and probably the last thing anyone should be is dogmatic.
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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:49 pm

mistake sorry
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'd better speak by music...Please listen my guitar at Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, etc.

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