Are You a Slave to the Score?

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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AndreiKrylov

Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:57 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:25 pm
There's no question that many characteristics are inherited. This is clear in physical traits. There is also no question that there is great uncertainty as to precisely where one can draw the line between those social, mental, intellectual etc characteristics that are inherited and those that arise from nurture within the same parenting as supplied the genes. As with most things, it may well be the case of a bit of both. With things like musical ability there is certainly no way to prove that a continued genetic line was responsible for a musical dynasty, vs continued nurture, education, family expectation, encouragement etc. My understanding of the current consensus would that not much genetic element would be involved. But it is, to coin a phrase, an evolving subject and probably the last thing anyone should be is dogmatic.
is this discussion about music, scores?
or genetics etc?
and what are the "musical genes"?
any of Bach ancestors or descendants ever reached depth of his music?
He was Genius !!!
and they... had some good abilities...
what about other composers?
- any of their children reached the same level of Art as their fathers?
Who?
and... sorry...what all this have with been slave of the score or not?

Nice suggestion - "With things like musical ability there is certainly no way to prove that a continued genetic line was responsible for a musical dynasty, vs continued nurture, education, family expectation, encouragement etc. "

funny!!!
in my case there were no musical genes except one of my grandfather played guitar but.. I never met him and he was amateur..
and in my case there were NO ANY "continued nurture, education, family expectation, encouragement " - absolutely opposite all life was a fighting to against all odds... and attitude was against been in Music ...
therefore maybe I should not even dare to start playing guitar etc???

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:52 am

Here's three among many scientific studies in leading scientific journals that corroborate my views. No psycho-babble . . . just Science. Playing again . . . Rognvald
https://www.livescience.com › Culture
https://www.scientificamerican.com/.../ ... common-dna...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073543/
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Jeffrey Armbruster

Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:13 am

Your links are problematic. the first one takes me to a site but I don't see anything about this subject. The second is a dead end--the paper no longer exists. the third is an overview of a study that begins by stating what we all know, that environment and genetic inheritance both play a role in musical ability. then it states that there are very few studies at all on the topic of genes and musical ability. But you have to wade through pages of jargon to find out that this isn't an original study at all but an overview of...well:

"Based on these criteria the search identified 97 articles (on the internet) that were then manually canvassed to select those directly addressing the genetic bases of various aspects of music ability using behavioral genetic or molecular genetic methods."

In other words, they went on the internet and canvassed 97 articles. We know nothing about the provenance of those articles, their methods, their sponsors, their credibility. The authors don't even mention how many articles were selected as being appropriate; it could have been six, or 12 or one. I leave it to the scientists here to determine if this approach allows a definitive, "scientifically" nailed down answer to the question. I mean, would you allow a drug to go onto market with this sort of analysis?

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ameriken
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by ameriken » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:30 am

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:57 pm

and... sorry...what all this have with been slave of the score or not?
Yes, can we get back on topic?

I am very interested in this thread because there was a time (almost 20 years ago) when I was a slave to the score, at least by my definition. That meant I played like a MIDI. All the right notes and right timing. It's no wonder I was told at that time that I sounded mechanical. I stopped playing for two years because I burnt myself out trying for perfection and not enjoying it.

When I came back, I decided to just play it the way I felt it should be played. Amazingly, I started to actually enjoy it and the guitar seemed easier to play.

However, I still played all the notes on the page, and still respected what the composer called for, but gave it my own voice and interpretation and made my playing more musical than mechanical.

Having said that, was I still a slave to the score?

Or is the opposite of being a slave to the score mean changing/adding/subtracting notes, adding a measure or two, inserting a scale or run, or making other alterations that were not in the original score? Does not being a slave to the score mean I can amend what the composer called for because I think I can improve it? IMO, that is taboo. I detest when I listen to a piece and the guitarist has added and changed what the composer had actually written.

I'm no expert in this, I'm an amateur and guitar is mostly a hobby, so I'm trying to clarify what it means to be a slave to the score and to not be.
Last edited by ameriken on Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:40 am

Jeff, Thanks for the feedback on the two articles that didn't print. If you Google: "Is Musical Talent Rooted in Genes-Live Science" and "What do great musicians have in common? DNA Scientific American," they both can be read. I don't know why they didn't read but I've had this happen before. I purposely chose the last article to counterbalance the first two articles which make much stronger conclusions about genes and music. I can't see how one can refute this evidence. However, it is clear to me that the evidence is very significant and growing daily. Scientific American and Live Science are hardly the equivalence of Daily Mail or the National Enquirer. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:46 am

Ameriken,
I agree with you completely. This thread drift is descending into the halls of sophistry . . . with scientific studies being ignored for sociological clap trap. The bottom line: it's time to move on and leave the cards where they have fallen. Great post Ameriken and very informative about your own personal experience in performance. Playing again . . .Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Smudger5150
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Smudger5150 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:36 am

ameriken wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:30 am
...Or is the opposite of being a slave to the score mean changing/adding/subtracting notes, adding a measure or two, inserting a scale or run, or making other alterations that were not in the original score? Does not being a slave to the score mean I can amend what the composer called for because I think I can improve it? IMO, that is taboo. I detest when I listen to a piece and the guitarist has added and changed what the composer had actually written.
...
A lot of us might not like it when a guitarist changes what the composer had written but then we talk about
historically informed performance and how players of the past used to improvise. And then we can talk about Jazz! Does
a jazz player ever play 100% from a score. I presumed they never did, or rather, used it as a starting point.

I want to have the skill to be able to play 100% from the score and I also want the ability to improvise occasionally. Something that the Classical music world is not always good or comfortable with.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the classical guitar exams don't have an improvising test/section...or do they?

I like how Monsieur Delcamp's methods have an improvising section even though I haven't gone through it (although I
intend to).

Incidentally, I wonder how many people play a piece from memory (sans score) find that their performance morphs into
something different from the score as the years go by. I think that's what happened to the only piece I can remember
(Adelita)!
Also, when I 1st started learning I had a few lessons from a friend who was an accomplished Classical Guitarist but he
hadn't taught anybody at that point. I learned a very small piece and played it for him and then ended with a bit of an
improvised slide up to an octave note above the final note. He quickly frowned and told me that 'Segovia would not like that!'
indicating that that was not the done thing. So even at that early stage, it was being drummed into me that any kind of improvising was frowned upon. Which is why I've only thought about doing solo improvising around scales when jamming a song at the local folk club or open mic night.

But are improvising and taking liberties with the score different things? Maybe.
But I guess there's a difference between saying to an audience - I'm playing piece X by Y and then not sticking to the score
as opposed to saying - I'm improvising around piece X by Y and then you're managing the audience's expectations.
"Music washes away the dust of every day life." Art Blakey

"If I don’t practice for a day, I know it. If I don’t practice for two days, the critics know it. And if I don’t practice for three days, the public knows it." Louis Armstrong

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ameriken
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by ameriken » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:50 pm

Smudger5150 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:36 am


But I guess there's a difference between saying to an audience - I'm playing piece X by Y and then not sticking to the score
as opposed to saying - I'm improvising around piece X by Y and then you're managing the audience's expectations.
You raise a great point. After posting that I 'detest' when a player alters a score, I gave it some more thought and then realized there are some versions that I actually liked such as the "Asturias as you've never heard" link I posted a page or two back. So perhaps managing those expectations is also important, at least I knew it was something different before I listened.
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Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:54 pm

I'm trying to clarify what it means to be a slave to the score and to not be. Ameriken
Amerikken,
Simply stated: being a slave to the score means that you believe the composer envisioned every nuance possible of dynamics, tempo, accents, pauses, etc. and you play the piece strictly as written. Being an interpretative player means that you use the written score as a guideline to be developed and enhanced based on the level of your "musicianship" and, at times, artistic inspiration. The first scenario would be what you call playing like a "Midi." The second, is the goal we all seek as seasoned, sensitive musicians. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

AndreiKrylov

Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:00 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:54 pm
I'm trying to clarify what it means to be a slave to the score and to not be. Ameriken
Amerikken,
Simply stated: being a slave to the score means that you believe the composer envisioned every nuance possible of dynamics, tempo, accents, pauses, etc. and you play the piece strictly as written. Being an interpretative player means that you use the written score as a guideline to be developed and enhanced based on the level of your "musicianship" and, at times, artistic inspiration. The first scenario would be what you call playing like a "Midi." The second, is the goal we all seek as seasoned, sensitive musicians. Playing again . . . Rognvald
both ways are good, but shouldn't someone only approached second way after he perfected first way...?

Rognvald
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:03 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:00 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:54 pm
I'm trying to clarify what it means to be a slave to the score and to not be. Ameriken
Amerikken,
Simply stated: being a slave to the score means that you believe the composer envisioned every nuance possible of dynamics, tempo, accents, pauses, etc. and you play the piece strictly as written. Being an interpretative player means that you use the written score as a guideline to be developed and enhanced based on the level of your "musicianship" and, at times, artistic inspiration. The first scenario would be what you call playing like a "Midi." The second, is the goal we all seek as seasoned, sensitive musicians. Playing again . . . Rognvald
both ways are good, but shouldn't someone only approached second way after he perfected first way...?

Yes, Andrei. You cannot get to B without mastering A. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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ameriken
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Re: Are You a Slave to the Score?

Post by ameriken » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:30 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:54 pm
I'm trying to clarify what it means to be a slave to the score and to not be. Ameriken
Amerikken,
Simply stated: being a slave to the score means that you believe the composer envisioned every nuance possible of dynamics, tempo, accents, pauses, etc. and you play the piece strictly as written. Being an interpretative player means that you use the written score as a guideline to be developed and enhanced based on the level of your "musicianship" and, at times, artistic inspiration. The first scenario would be what you call playing like a "Midi." The second, is the goal we all seek as seasoned, sensitive musicians. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Thank you Rognvald, and that's how I would define it.
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