Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
Fretful
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Fretful » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:16 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:46 pm
PS also did you try leaving out the time signature altogether?
You are perspicacious! I did indeed. And indeed failed at that as well! Hence the - admittedly - occasionally very bizarre time signatures ... Faiblesse oblige ...

User avatar
sxedio
Posts: 1292
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: UK / Cyprus

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by sxedio » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:04 pm

Fretful wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:11 pm
sxedio wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:02 pm
The Carcassi method goes through the keys one by one, giving examples of cadences, a prelude and often a more complicated piece.
Thank you for flagging that up. Which publication are you referring to ? All the methods I have by him do indeed go through some of the keys, but my editions have none of the analyses under discussion.
I mean this sort of thing (screenshot from opus 59 in Boije). There is not much text analysis but it kind of speaks by itself and you would hope the teacher would expand on it and explain.
c_sharp_minor.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

Fretful
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Fretful » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:21 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:18 pm
I think you'd be looking for something like a 'force accidental'
That's all there is :

Type R. The note turns into a rest.
Accidentals
You can add and edit accidentals with the Simple Entry Tool.
To add a sharped or flatted note
• Click the Simple Entry Tool 4. The Simple Entry Palettes appear.
• Click the icon representing the desired note’s duration.
• Click the Sharp Tool m or Flat Tool o.
• Click the staff. A sharped or flatted note appears where you clicked. Also, after entering a
note, press the left arrow key to select it. Then, use a keystroke to apply an accidental. Press +
to specify a sharp, - to specify a flat and N to specify a natural.
• After entering a note with the caret, press + to add a sharp or - to add a flat.

and under "force" there is nothing. I'll keep trying.

Fretful
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Fretful » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:33 pm

sxedio wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:02 pm
The Carcassi method goes through the keys one by one, giving examples of cadences, a prelude and often a more complicated piece.
What happened to your post of the screenshot ?????? I was just about to sightread your send, and it's gone!

User avatar
sxedio
Posts: 1292
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:18 pm
Location: UK / Cyprus

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by sxedio » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:52 pm

Fretful wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:33 pm
sxedio wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:02 pm
The Carcassi method goes through the keys one by one, giving examples of cadences, a prelude and often a more complicated piece.
What happened to your post of the screenshot ?????? I was just about to sightread your send, and it's gone!
It's still there for me.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

Fretful
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Fretful » Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:52 pm

sxedio wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:52 pm
It's still there for me.
Don't know what happened there ... still there, you are quite right. I notice four errors : 3rd bar should be at the 3rd position (not 2nd) ; 5th bar is not a "Grand Barre" but a 4-string barre ; Bar 9 should be a 2nd position "petit" Barre (not 1st) ; Bar 10 should be a 2nd position Grand Barre (not 3rd),
Goes to show how tremendously tricky music editorial is!
Many thanks for letting me see this.

SteveL123
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by SteveL123 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:46 pm

Hi Fretful,

I learned to play by ear and I am very weak in music theory. The 3rd chord with the G# in this A minor harmonic triad just does not sound right to me. Sounds better if it's a G natural. Am I mistaken?

Edit: With the G#, the chord sounds like either a diminished or Augmented, not sure which. Definitely not a 7th.


Image

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:09 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:46 pm
Hi Fretful,
I learned to play by ear and I am very weak in music theory. The 3rd chord with the G# in this A minor harmonic triad just does not sound right to me. Sounds better if it's a G natural. Am I mistaken?
Edit: With the G#, the chord sounds like either a diminished or Augmented, not sure which. Definitely not a 7th.
[image removed in edit, please refer to original post]
Note that its in part because its a Harmonic Minor that it sounds odd. And yes those chords with the sharp in are all 'altered' - the III is augmented (the 5th degree) and the VII is diminished.

As in if you do the same thing with a major scale, the VII is still diminished (in C major, B-D-F). So its an outcome of the logic of the scale and the chords built on degrees thereof. Doesn't necessarily make much musical sense sometimes.
Last edited by Stephen Kenyon on Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

Fretful
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Fretful » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:39 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:46 pm
The 3rd chord with the G# in this A minor harmonic triad just does not sound right to me. Sounds better if it's a G natural. Am I mistaken?
Yours is a very good and simple question but requires a long and complicated answer which Stephen Kenyon has done a very good job synthesising ; he knows his stuff!
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:49 pm
For sake of clarity, should all the Gs be marked sharp in the above?
For sake of gratitude, I have altered the A minor Harmonic Triads, as you quite rightly suggested. Sadly, I did it AFTER you quoted it (you might now want to edit your post).
I couldn't do it with Finale but used something called NotAset (which you are most probably too young to know anything about - have we moved on, or what ?!) which came out of a drawer where it had not seen the light of day for at least twenty five years, but was as fresh as a daisy, and which was woken up with a kiss - it must have thought I was three quarters of a century early).
Apologies for the fact that it is not quite the same size as in Finale, but what it loses in bulk it gains in finesse.

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2394
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:22 pm

Fretful wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:39 pm
...
I couldn't do it with Finale but used something called NotAset (which you are most probably too young to know anything about - have we moved on, or what ?!) which came out of a drawer where it had not seen the light of day for at least twenty five years, but was as fresh as a daisy, and which was woken up with a kiss - it must have thought I was three quarters of a century early).
Apologies for the fact that it is not quite the same size as in Finale, but what it loses in bulk it gains in finesse.
You may not believe it but I used NotAset (NoteAset? NotaSet?) in the 1980s - its a dry transfer letting of music characters for those wondering what the heck we are rabbiting about) - for a very silly publisher who shall remain nameless (as well as shameless) in fact I still have the rubbing tool used to transfer the characters neatly. I am amazed yours is still useable after all this time. Somehow I doubt a computer of that vintage would start up first time - hang on, where's my old Atari 1040 ... ?

Did you say somewhere your Finale is one of the cut down versions? Think it must be.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

dtoh
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:54 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by dtoh » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:24 pm

Fretful wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:23 pm
Many thanks. I haven't written the sequel yet. I was thinking I might do it. Your encouragement further tempts me.
It would be a huge help to a lot of people. You could start small by annotating a few existing studies that are off copyright. Build from there.

Fretful
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Fretful » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:55 am

dtoh wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:24 pm
You could start small by annotating a few existing studies.
I will give Logy's second phrase the same treatment. This will take time, but I will notify you when it's done. As for what you suggest, this would need more stamina and endurance and I would look to those with more vision and hunger for the long haul (see my earlier post of 13.13 yesterday).
Your response, among those of others, is heart-warming and indicates that this Topic has struck a chord and will, hopefully, resonate further. Perhaps publishers and pedagogues read this forum ? We should urge them more.

dtoh
Posts: 261
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:54 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by dtoh » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:38 am

Fretful wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:55 am
This will take time, but I will notify you when it's done. As for what you suggest, this would need more stamina and endurance and I would look to those with more vision and hunger for the long haul (see my earlier post of 13.13 yesterday).
Your response, among those of others, is heart-warming and indicates that this Topic has struck a chord and will, hopefully, resonate further. Perhaps publishers and pedagogues read this forum ? We should urge them more.
You could maybe start by just hand annotating a one or two pieces and then snapping a pic with your phone that you could post.

Probably easier said than done...but we sure appreciate your effort to advance this stuff.

Fretful
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 2:00 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by Fretful » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:59 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:22 pm
I used NotAset (NoteAset? NotaSet?)
Here is the answer to that riddle (as well as a litle present) :
NotAset.jpg
You can see the yellowing around the edges ... but still in perfect working order (as are you, judging from your posts) ; a credit to the company!
According to this : https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/life-b ... e-notaset/ , it's now part of "Music Printing History" ... well, I have a whole stack of them!
Happy birthday to you!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

CactusWren
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: Technique and Harmony - anticipation in new piece

Post by CactusWren » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:22 pm

Just to add some more bits to the discussion.

When I studied theory, they began by teaching figured bass. Apparently a competent keyboardist could see this scanty notation and improvise an accompaniment. It seemed obvious that learning how to do this on guitar would help a guitarist create a robust knowledge and toolbox of typical shapes and moves on the fretboard. I think Rob Mackillop did it or began working on such an approach (?).

Second, Charles Duncan in his Guitar 2000 book, mentions that many even fairly advanced guitarists can't play simple cadences in various positions over the fingerboard. I agree with him that learning these basic formulae would make a nice start to understanding theory as it applies to guitar playing. After all, cadences are kind of microcosmic guitar pieces, aren't they? The ii-V7-I moves (or I6/4-V7-I) show up so much in common practice rep, but do most intermediate players really know what's going on?

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”