Planting right-hand thumb for chord tone with grace note?

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
Brooke Martin
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Planting right-hand thumb for chord tone with grace note?

Post by Brooke Martin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:18 pm

"And I don't have a score to hand to see what the composer notated. It might well work to follow whatever happens there on guitar - as per usual, if it sound right it is right!"

In the first measure of Gnossienne I, for instance, the grace note is written with a slash through it, making it an acciaccatura--played before the beat. In this first measure, the A in the chord with the grace note (which is from E to D sharp) would be played on the beat, along with the D sharp. I suppose you might still say that the grace note could be played so quickly with the D sharp (as a sort of "crushed note") that you could still play the grace note and chord together and the A would sound like it was on the beat. Still, I know how I'd play it on the piano, and I don't see why it would be played any differently on the guitar (meaning I think the grace note would be played before the beat and the bass note on the beat). A very interesting discussion indeed. :)

Alexander Kalil
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Planting right-hand thumb for chord tone with grace note?

Post by Alexander Kalil » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:21 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:05 pm
And again I would very much like to know of any clear instances of pre-beat graces
Granados' Spanish Dance No 5 immediately comes to mind. The first three measures contain 15 individual grace notes, all of which are played before the beat by almost everyone, including Granados himself. :-)
...
Grace1.png
...
On the other hand, measure 18 starts with an ornament accompanied by a bass note. Modern players tend to interpret the ornament on the beat, playing the bass note together with the first grace note. This is at odds with Granados' recording (ca 1913), where he plays the bass note together with the principal note, thus effectively interpreting the ornament as before the beat!
...
Grace2.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Alexander Kalil on Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

JohnB
Posts: 703
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:17 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

Re: Planting right-hand thumb for chord tone with grace note?

Post by JohnB » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:19 pm

Eric Taylor in "The AB Guide to Music Theory" Part 1 says, talking about grace notes, that in the 18th C the convention was that they were played on the beat but during the 19th C it became increasingly common for composers to expect them to be played before the beat. However, this was not universal and some composers expected them on the beat.

Of course, Eric Taylor book is a general music theory guide and not a treatise on historic practice.
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso"

astro64
Posts: 766
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:43 pm
Location: American Southwest

Re: Planting right-hand thumb for chord tone with grace note?

Post by astro64 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:15 pm

It seems when there is a bass note involved as well, it may be harder to play the grace note prior to the beat on the guitar than on the piano, perhaps. E.g. if the grace note is played with a slur down to the main note, the bass would drown out the slurred note. If you instead do not use a slur, speed and timing would be still be tricky. Can anyone point at good quality recordings that may demonstrate this on the guitar?

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2305
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Planting right-hand thumb for chord tone with grace note?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:16 am

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:21 pm
Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:05 pm
And again I would very much like to know of any clear instances of pre-beat graces
Granados' Spanish Dance No 5 immediately comes to mind. The first three measures contain 15 individual grace notes, all of which are played before the beat by almost everyone, including Granados himself. :-)
......
Thank you for taking the trouble to post those. I was of course, unclearly, meaning examples of grace notes, on chords, on guitar :oops:

astro 64 put it much more succinctly.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”