Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

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barcod
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by barcod » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:18 am

Ricflair wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:16 pm
jmlineb wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:28 pm
What is the best introduction to Flamenco guitar technique for someone trained in the Classical guitar? What books, recordings, videos, artists, and solos might you recommend? I know I'll never be an authentic Flamenco guitar player, but I'd like to add some Flamenco techniques and even solos to my repertoire. Very few artists seem to be able to do both well; Adam del Monte is a notable exception, as well as (but to a lesser extent) Pepe Romero. Thank you!
You cannot learn flamenco through a book. Start by learning solea compas (baile). This will help you to begin to develop a sense of compas. you can slowly begin to build up a vocabulary of compas and falsetas from here. I would seek out a reputable teacher either online or in person. By the time you're able to truly integrate great sounding flamenco techniques in your classical playing, you will already probably be a pretty good flamenco player. Listening is very important. Paco de Lucia (obviously), Tomatito, Niño de Pura, Vincete Amigo are all great modern players.There are others, but this is a good list to start with. You need to listen to be able to get the feel or swing of the genre. If you don't listen to it, you'll never sound anything remotely 'flamenco'. Flamenco is all about compas we're staying in perfect time or groove. Many of the techniques I just smoke and mirrors and not as difficult as they sound. Good luck and I hope this helps!
You CAN learn flamenco through a book, especially with all the online resources you have access to to supplement your learning. I would agree with listening to a lot of flamenco and use video resources, paid or free, as much as possible. I would definitely recommend Juan Martin's aforementioned book for learning. It has a lot to say on technique, which is markedly different from classical one and might appear to be absurd for a classical guitarist but also happens to be the right way to play. He also has another series with DVDs to supplement to actually see it in action.

Good luck!

Ricflair
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:01 pm

Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by Ricflair » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:58 am

barcod wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:18 am
Ricflair wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:16 pm
jmlineb wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:28 pm
What is the best introduction to Flamenco guitar technique for someone trained in the Classical guitar? What books, recordings, videos, artists, and solos might you recommend? I know I'll never be an authentic Flamenco guitar player, but I'd like to add some Flamenco techniques and even solos to my repertoire. Very few artists seem to be able to do both well; Adam del Monte is a notable exception, as well as (but to a lesser extent) Pepe Romero. Thank you!
You cannot learn flamenco through a book. Start by learning solea compas (baile). This will help you to begin to develop a sense of compas. you can slowly begin to build up a vocabulary of compas and falsetas from here. I would seek out a reputable teacher either online or in person. By the time you're able to truly integrate great sounding flamenco techniques in your classical playing, you will already probably be a pretty good flamenco player. Listening is very important. Paco de Lucia (obviously), Tomatito, Niño de Pura, Vincete Amigo are all great modern players.There are others, but this is a good list to start with. You need to listen to be able to get the feel or swing of the genre. If you don't listen to it, you'll never sound anything remotely 'flamenco'. Flamenco is all about compas we're staying in perfect time or groove. Many of the techniques I just smoke and mirrors and not as difficult as they sound. Good luck and I hope this helps!
You CAN learn flamenco through a book, especially with all the online resources you have access to to supplement your learning. I would agree with listening to a lot of flamenco and use video resources, paid or free, as much as possible. I would definitely recommend Juan Martin's aforementioned book for learning. It has a lot to say on technique, which is markedly different from classical one and might appear to be absurd for a classical guitarist but also happens to be the right way to play. He also has another series with DVDs to supplement to actually see it in action.

Good luck!
Sorry, but this is misinformation. To be able to competently play flamenco, you must develop a sense of compas. Starting with Solea, learn the progressions for basic compas sets and simple falsetas. You can learn other palos from there. Play for dancers if possible. This is common knowledge in flamenco circles. You will NOT learn how to do this properly from a book. Legit flamenco players DO NOT learn this way. Go to a flamenco forum and post this post. They will tell you the same thing I am telling you. You will learn twice as much, twice as fast about playing flamenco with the advice I posted in my original post. I am not making a guess. I have already done it. Good luck learning to play flamenco well from a book. It is a fool's errand...

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guitarrista
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by guitarrista » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:31 am

Ricflair wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:58 am
Good luck learning to play flamenco well from a book. It is a fool's errand...
Of course it is possible, just not likely to work out for the majority of flamenco beginners. But this is very far from being as declarative as you are [in posts above; not quoted here] in denying it is possible at all. Your claim is pretty easy to disprove - all I need to do is show ONE example: Grisha Goryachev learned this way. Look him up.
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Rasqeo
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:53 am

I think you can learn solo flamenco guitar like Grisha from books if you are very determined. However, if you want to accompany singers and dancers books aren’t going to be much help in my opinion. Although Grisha is a fantastic player with a formidable technique, you can hear the difference in his playing compared with players who grew up playing accompaniment then became solo players later.

Ricflair
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by Ricflair » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:22 am

When I wrote this, I wondered if someone would bring up Grisha. He is one in a million. A great virtuoso who was bound to succeed regardless of the method. He is the exception, not the rule. I am sure there may be a few others. However, as a rule, the average person will not be successful learning flamenco guitar from a book. I think this is a fair, honest statement and not controversial at all around flamencos.

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guitarrista
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by guitarrista » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:28 pm

Ricflair wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:22 am
the average person will not be successful learning flamenco guitar from a book.
Well OK, thank you for climbing down from your previous claim. If you had started with this, I would not have jumped in.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Ricflair
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by Ricflair » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:56 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:28 pm
Ricflair wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:22 am
the average person will not be successful learning flamenco guitar from a book.
Well OK, thank you for climbing down from your previous claim. If you had started with this, I would not have jumped in.
I have observed through the years, many classical players are seriously misinformed about the process of learning flamenco guitar even at an elementary level. I have no issue admitting a one in a million artist like Grisha can learn in this context. However, the advice of learning flamenco guitar from a book is really sending most people down the wrong path. If you play flamenco, you know this. Like I said before, nothing I wrote would be even slightly controversial around flamencos.

Ricflair
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by Ricflair » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:59 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:53 am
I think you can learn solo flamenco guitar like Grisha from books if you are very determined. However, if you want to accompany singers and dancers books aren’t going to be much help in my opinion. Although Grisha is a fantastic player with a formidable technique, you can hear the difference in his playing compared with players who grew up playing accompaniment then became solo players later.
I agree with your post, Rasqueo, but I think I would rephrase a part of your statement. Replace 'determined' with 'extremely gifted'.

Rasqeo
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:28 pm

Ricflair wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:59 pm
Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:53 am
I think you can learn solo flamenco guitar like Grisha from books if you are very determined. However, if you want to accompany singers and dancers books aren’t going to be much help in my opinion. Although Grisha is a fantastic player with a formidable technique, you can hear the difference in his playing compared with players who grew up playing accompaniment then became solo players later.
I agree with your post, Rasqueo, but I think I would rephrase a part of your statement. Replace 'determined' with 'extremely gifted'.
Well yes I agree if we’re taking about playing to the same kind of level as Grisha then a lot of talent will be required as well as hard work. But if someone say just wants to learn the basic palos and a few Juan Martin solos then that is perfectly achievable through studying books. Whether you regard this as really playing flamenco is another matter. It’s true anyone learning flamenco this way will have a big shock the first time they try to play with a dancer or a singer but not everyone wants to do that so I don’t think learning from books should be entirely discounted. I personally think online learning is the best way if face-to-face lessons are not possible.

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guitarrista
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by guitarrista » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:16 pm

Ricflair wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:56 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:28 pm
Ricflair wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:22 am
the average person will not be successful learning flamenco guitar from a book.
Well OK, thank you for climbing down from your previous claim. If you had started with this, I would not have jumped in.
[...]However, the advice of learning flamenco guitar from a book is really sending most people down the wrong path.
Why would it be limited to a book only, which is what you are implying here - there is YouTube with countless tutorials and with actual examples of playing at the highest level for both solo and accompaniment. Even back before the internet era the instruction books would come at least with a cassette tape, as in the case of Juan Martin's; later on with CDs and DVDs. Not one person here was advocating for book-only learning of flamenco.

Also, a reminder of what the original poster actually asked (emphasis mine):
What is the best introduction to Flamenco guitar technique for someone trained in the Classical guitar? What books, recordings, videos, artists, and solos might you recommend? I know I'll never be an authentic Flamenco guitar player, but I'd like to add some Flamenco techniques and even solos to my repertoire.
I'd say almost all responses to this request have been perfectly appropriate for what was actually being asked.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

GuidoGitarist
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by GuidoGitarist » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:46 am

The best way is finding a flamenco teacher. Flamenco is hard to learn and self teaching isn't recommended with flamenco. What you usually see happening is that a classical player will play a flamenco song, sounding like a classical song. Rasquados and alzapuas will sound dull. Really, go find a flamenco teacher. After you got the basics you can look for books with music, but usually flamenco is learned visually and not via a sheet of music, so if you get a book, definitely take one with a dvd!
2013 Perez Luthier India 'Abeto'
Flamenco player

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Keith
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by Keith » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:50 pm

As a flamenco player I highly recommend finding a teacher and supplement with Juan Martin. All the videos in the world cannot correct mistakes or bad technique.
be true to the one you love but have many flings with different guitars

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ronjazz
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by ronjazz » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:57 am

As a classical guitarist for 3 decades before taking up flamenco, I know that one can learn a lot of basics from books; I favor Dennis Koster's series for American classical guitarists, along with Paco Pena's collection of (student-level) pieces, which are very, musical and flamenco. Taking lessons was good, I took a few, but I found real flamenco (or absorbed it) playing for dance classes (problem being you need to be able to play the rhythms before they'll tolerate you). I went to Cordoba for the Paco Pena Flamenco course, and got to study with him and Mario Escudero.

In any event, for classical players, a set of Sevillanas is very acceptable for classical audiences, or an Alegrias; these are two of the forms where "easier" pieces can still sound good if played with strong rhythm, and the great thing about concert flamenco guitar is that you can create your own versions of the toques by stealing "falsettos" from a variety of sources. Of course, in order to do any of it, you must work constantly at recognizing the different dances and accents and harmonic elements, as well as tempos to guide you. Flamenco is a folk form and aural tradition, so there are many versions of each "palo", or dance form. Like jazz, once can "improvise" by knowing several "falsettos", which can be from 4 to 16 measures long in traditional flamenco; Paco de Lucia in concert could string together his own falsettos for several minutes. It really doesn't come to life until you can accompany a dance troupe; all of the greats started in accompanying roles.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

ronjazz
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Re: Best introduction to Flamenco technique for a Classical guitarist?

Post by ronjazz » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:01 am

for those of you without teacher access, there are lots of videos available, and you can learn technique from a video, but you really have have a good video and pay close attention. As mentioned above, Kai's new course looks promising, and there is a great series of videos done by masters and well-produced that one can learn much from, Encuentro Productions, I think.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

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