Jazz on Classical guitar

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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sxedio
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by sxedio » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:31 pm

Ivor Mairants belongs to that british phenomenon of the guitarist who starts from jazz and then goes way beyond it (in his case in the classical direction), see new post by Rob McKillop and associated piece here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125687 . I'd consider Keith Rowe and Derek Bailey other manifestations of the phenomenon, in their case they didn't go towards classical (though Bailey was into serialism in a way :)
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

RobMacKillop
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:34 pm

Cheers for the mention. I recorded a video of Bailey's Webern-inspired pieces, for my archtopguitar.net website.

Daires Roberto
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by Daires Roberto » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:52 pm

I read all posts and don´t see the name Joe Pass.

Daires Roberto
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by Daires Roberto » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:57 pm

Joe Pass Guitar Instruction Books
There's a lot of 'em out there.

Joe Pass Guitar Method
Joe Pass Guitar Style (-the one co-authored by Bill Thrasher. I believe Carol Kaye was the original publisher of this and she still recommends it to students who are ready for it.)
Joe Pass Guitar Chords: Learn the Sounds of Modern Chords & Progressions
Joe Pass Omnibook
Joe Pass On Guitar (<<<I think this book is based on instructional video--now on DVD--- Joe did. He did four or five of those, I think.)
Joe Pass Virtuso Standards Songbook Collection
Joe Pass Collection (-a dozen transcriptions)
The Best of Joe Pass: A Step-By-Step Breakdown of The Styles and Techniques.... (Wolf Marshall)
Joe Pass Chord Solos
Mel Bay's Complete Joe Pass (a collection of five Joe Pass books published by Mel Bay, including the one of duets with Herb Ellis)
That's not a complete list either.

Given that a) Joe Pass was among the greatest jazz guitarists and b) he put out a lot of instructional material, in English no less, why is that we don't talk much about it? (Notice, I'm not saying we never talk about or no one here mentions Joe Pass. But it seems to me there is very little talk about the method of a certifiable great who put out a shelf of instructional material, none of which is hard to find or expensive.)

mvisscher
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by mvisscher » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:24 pm

Hi Ali;

Lots of great suggestions here, Rognvald sums it up very nicely.

I'll add my 2 cents to the list of materials;

'Melodic Rhythms for Guitar' by W. Leavitt is a great resource for developing a rhythmic vocabulary, you'll need and arsenal of chord voicings to work through it. 'Jazz Guitar method by Ronny Lee, vol 2' (pub Mel Bay) provides lots of exercises to get you started.

For conceptual approaches to the subject try ' The Advancing Guitarist' by Mick Goodrick...it may change the way you look at the guitar fingerboard.

Anything that gets you thinking about how to apply theory to your instrument is going to help you A LOT for Jazz studies. It's about being a totally literate musician, something we all strive for and will never fully achieve (at least I've never met anyone who claims to be absolutely literate...I think it's a journey with no end..)

Have fun exploring!

jazzkat
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by jazzkat » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:13 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:02 pm
" So any tips on how to approach arpeggios and jazz in general. " Ali



Hi, Ali.
You'll never learn to play Jazz reading a "How To" book. Most, in my opinion, even by the "luminaries" are laughable. Unless you want to become one of the music machines that are being reproduced in our universities(the exception being Berklee in Boston), you'll need to do the following:
1.) Listen, listen, listen to recordings of the "greats."
2.) Listen to live Jazz Music as much as possible
3.) Study and Master Music Theory in all its facets
4.) Master your instrument
5.) Start playing with ensembles as much as possible
6.) Steal music ideas from everyone to increase your musical depth
7.) Know every scale and chord and be able to play them on recall--forward and backward
8.) Learn the Jazz standards and then . . . after twenty years, or so, of dedication, you might be able to play Jazz. However, it is not a guarantee.
How do you like those odds? Playing again . . . Rognvald
A lot of truth but a bit extreme!

Playing jazz is like learning a language, if you immerse yourself it comes quicker. It's difficult to become proficient by just dabbling in it now and again. It doesn't take 20 years, though you could argue that you never truly master any aspect of music.

To the OP, re Arpeggios - work on the caged system it's a good way to formulate a geography of the guitars neck so that your chord and scale ideas are informing each other. Learn the major 7th, minor 7th, dominant 7th and the minor 7b5 arpeggio shapes in the five different fingerboard positions.
That will give you a good start as these can be used as substitutes to give you the hip sounds eg playing Dm7 arp over a G7 chord will give you the sound of G dominant13 or playing the Fm7b5 arpeggio over a G7 will give you the b9, #5, 3rd and b7 from the G altered scale.
It is a worm hole but it's fun :D

jazzkat
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by jazzkat » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:28 pm

Daires Roberto wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:57 pm
Joe Pass Guitar Instruction Books
There's a lot of 'em out there.

Joe Pass Guitar Method
Joe Pass Guitar Style (-the one co-authored by Bill Thrasher. I believe Carol Kaye was the original publisher of this and she still recommends it to students who are ready for it.)
Joe Pass Guitar Chords: Learn the Sounds of Modern Chords & Progressions
Joe Pass Omnibook
Joe Pass On Guitar (<<<I think this book is based on instructional video--now on DVD--- Joe did. He did four or five of those, I think.)
Joe Pass Virtuso Standards Songbook Collection
Joe Pass Collection (-a dozen transcriptions)
The Best of Joe Pass: A Step-By-Step Breakdown of The Styles and Techniques.... (Wolf Marshall)
Joe Pass Chord Solos
Mel Bay's Complete Joe Pass (a collection of five Joe Pass books published by Mel Bay, including the one of duets with Herb Ellis)
That's not a complete list either.

Given that a) Joe Pass was among the greatest jazz guitarists and b) he put out a lot of instructional material, in English no less, why is that we don't talk much about it? (Notice, I'm not saying we never talk about or no one here mentions Joe Pass. But it seems to me there is very little talk about the method of a certifiable great who put out a shelf of instructional material, none of which is hard to find or expensive.)
I agree with you, Joe Pass is one of the greatest exponents of Jazz guitar ever, in my opinion. Not only a consummate soloist (he's so melodic) but his comping ability was also sublime, check out his duets with Ella Fitzgerald.
My jazz playing took a huge leap forward when I started studying the Joe Pass Chord solo book. Transcribing a few of his solos didn't do me any harm either!

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sxedio
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by sxedio » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:28 pm

jazzkat wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:28 pm

I agree with you, Joe Pass is one of the greatest exponents of Jazz guitar ever, in my opinion. Not only a consummate soloist (he's so melodic) but his comping ability was also sublime, check out his duets with Ella Fitzgerald.
+1 but he wasn't playing on a classical guitar, hence not an obvious reference for this thread.
(Gr) (En) (very little Fr)

Daires Roberto
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by Daires Roberto » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:12 pm

sxedio wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:28 pm

+1 but he wasn't playing on a classical guitar, hence not an obvious reference for this thread.
If all think like you, Barrios and Villa-Lobos aren´t reference for classical guitar.

ronjazz
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by ronjazz » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:51 pm

Pass worked as a youngster out of the Carcassi Method, and his right-hand attitude is more like a classical player's than most jazz guitarists. Check out his video with Ella Fitzgerald called Hanover 1975, some great shots of his classically-based technique.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
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Dave
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by Dave » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:56 pm

Joe Pass played a classical guitar on his album, "Unforgettable."
Dave

Ali Hamdani
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by Ali Hamdani » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:44 pm

How do people feel about Matt Wornack guitar website. I found it to be pretty useful but I still have to look through all the links that people gave me. It is kinda hard to figure out where I should go next.

Rognvald
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by Rognvald » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:45 pm

"Playing jazz is like learning a language, if you immerse yourself it comes quicker. It's difficult to become proficient by just dabbling in it now and again. It doesn't take 20 years, " Jazzcat



JK,
I never met any player, unless they were a true prodigy, that could play Jazz in less than 15- 20 years(OK, I mean more or less not necessarily, exactly 20 years). And, it true for Classical Music as well. I suppose it depends on your definition of Jazz and what are your standards. I talk to people all the time who abuse the term "Classical/Jazz" musician. I've listened to many players who are barely intermediate players that think they are "artists." Great ego . . . not great chops! My point is that all good musicians need technique, knowledge, and seasoning. This takes time. I once attended a "jam session" in the Seventies at the Enterprise Lounge on the South Side of Chicago. It was led by the great tenor saxophonist Von Freeman and his trio. One of the players who sat in was a 17-year-old alto saxophonist-- (now famous)Stevie Coleman. When he got on the stage, everyone waiting to play/sit in-- looked at each other in surprise until little Stevie started to play. He did "Hot House" and played Like Bird(Charlie Parker). He had been playing for less than 10 years. It was not easy to get on the stage after he finished. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

kmurdick
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by kmurdick » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:59 am

Most jazz guitarists who call themselves jazz players, aren't. Charlie Byrd is not really a very good jazz player, although I enjoyed hearing' him play live. It takes decades to learn play jazz on the guitar because of the nature of the instrument. The guitar is not a linear instrument for one thing, and the simplest patterns are quite difficult to play on the guitar. When you hear a real jazz guitar player, it's really obvious that he is doing something different than the rest of the herd. If you want to get into playing jazz, first learn to play straight rhythm to a bunch of jazz standards. (see my videos). They are pretty low production, but they get the point across. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... FAA2EAA031

Rognvald
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Re: Jazz on Classical guitar

Post by Rognvald » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:01 pm

kmurdick wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:59 am
Most jazz guitarists who call themselves jazz players, aren't. Charlie Byrd is not really a very good jazz player, although I enjoyed hearing' him play live. It takes decades to learn play jazz on the guitar because of the nature of the instrument. The guitar is not a linear instrument for one thing, and the simplest patterns are quite difficult to play on the guitar. When you hear a real jazz guitar player, it's really obvious that he is doing something different than the rest of the herd. If you want to get into playing jazz, first learn to play straight rhythm to a bunch of jazz standards. (see my videos). They are pretty low production, but they get the point across. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... FAA2EAA031

Nicely said, K and I agree completely about Charlie Byrd--in fact, I don't consider him a Jazzer although he is a good guitarist. His improvisations are tame and studied when compared to Wes Montgomery, Bruce Forman, George Benson, Pat Martino, etc. We live in a world today of instant gratification and success where three chord guitarists rule the airwaves hiding behind mind-numbing volume, crashing cymbals and parrot screeching vocals and call themselves artists. Also, your point about the guitar not being "a linear instrument" deals directly with the difficulty of playing Jazz and Classical, for that matter, and seeking a creative approach to our music. It is what we struggle with daily on our long journey to competency. Here's Bruce Forman with a nice tasty treat:
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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