When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Rasqeo
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Rasqeo » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:40 am

Thinking again about the slurs, I realised the arranger has put them on the note prior to an open string. In other words, they’ve considered only the technical aspect of playing the piece on guitar not the musical aspect.

The problem is that introducing a slur in a scale passage interrupts the rhythm. If it’s done in a consistent way to achieve a desired effect then fine but when it’s done based only on where the open strings fall with no consideration of the accents then that’s a problem in my view. For that reason I would ignore the slurs and in fact I would find a more scholarly edition of the piece, e.g. Koonce.

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Julian Ward
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Julian Ward » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 am

I would add that I absolutely would not use any music that has TAB underneath it...as a student as you are, that wants to take the guitar seriously, your eyes and brain will be drawn to the TAB and this will seriously destroy your music reading. I am not saying that to be pompous at all, just the voice of experience. As regards which way around to alternate, this is the job of the teacher who is sitting with you for you to work out together.
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Crofty
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Crofty » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:01 am

Rasqeo wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:40 am
Thinking again about the slurs, I realised the arranger has put them on the note prior to an open string. In other words, they’ve considered only the technical aspect of playing the piece on guitar not the musical aspect.
Yes, that was what I was alluding to in my earlier comment. It actually IS guitaristic in a sense but has nothing to do with baroque style.

Paul

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guitarrista
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by guitarrista » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:19 am

Terpfan wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:45 am
guitarrista wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:11 am
Terpfan wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:57 pm


The bad thing about this fingering is you are crossing string with m only descending.
If you are referring to descending run i,m string-crossing (which is considered more awkward than m,i) It is not bad - one SHOULD be able to do it any which way. This is part of gaining that proficiency.
When you practice string crossing, that's fine. When you are fingering a piece, try to get best fingering possible. Descending scale cross with I if possible. Ascending with M.
And when the scale does not line up nicely like this slurred one so that you just have to start with the right finger to have nice crossings all the way but you want to do it strict i-m for power and speed, you are back to the original problem and need to have had practice to acquire control and fluency to tackle that situation.
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

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Lawler
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Lawler » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:10 am

Julian Ward wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 am
...I would add that I absolutely would not use any music that has TAB underneath it...as a student as you are, that wants to take the guitar seriously...
Well said.

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guitarist_le
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by guitarist_le » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:52 am

Lawler wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:10 am
Julian Ward wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 am
...I would add that I absolutely would not use any music that has TAB underneath it...as a student as you are, that wants to take the guitar seriously...
Well said.
Agreeeed

RobMacKillop
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:02 am

Baroque lute tablatures are full of slurs, so why some have said to do so is unBach or unBaroque is debatable at best. There's nothing wrong with repeating the same right-hand finger for consecutive notes. Be inventive. Concentrate on what you want to do musically, and find a way to achieve it. I'd do a mixture of slurs with alternating p and i.

Welcome to the world of fingering concepts. There are as many as there are players! We all want people to tell us the secret code that only pros use, but there isn't one. You have to figure things out for yourself. My advice is to keep focussed on the musical effect you are looking for, and find a way to achieve it, no matter what anyone else does, including the editor.

DevonBadger
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by DevonBadger » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:24 am

One of the many things I've learnt from my teacher is not to have a second thought about getting your pencil out and changing editorial fingerings.

Crofty
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Crofty » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:03 pm

DevonBadger wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:24 am
One of the many things I've learnt from my teacher is not to have a second thought about getting your pencil out and changing editorial fingerings.

Even better, with Bach especially, is to work from an editor that gives you full source notes together with an unadulterated score - i.e. the right notes but no fingerings.

If you feel competent to play Bach then I really feel you should be capable of making fingering decisions yourself.

From a more mundane and practical point of view trying to re-edit fully fingered scores can end up being both messy and confusing.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:36 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:Baroque lute tablatures are full of slurs, so why some have said to do so is unBach or unBaroque is debatable at best.
An important point Rob - Weiss (for instance) employed "slurs of convenience" all the time - to the extent that I believe that he must have expected a very finely controlled fretting hand articulation as a matter of course in order to weight phrasing musically between both hands (as keyboardists do all the time).

How much this may have been more readily achievable than on our modern instruments with plastic strings is still open for debate and experimentation. Giuliani took a similar approach by the way.
RobMacKillop wrote:... keep focussed on the musical effect you are looking for, and find a way to achieve it, no matter what anyone else does, including the editor.
Hallelujah.

closet guitarist
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by closet guitarist » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:09 pm

To play as written, to me the simplest is pi then mi from then on.

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guitarist_le
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by guitarist_le » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:20 pm

guitarist_le wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:52 am
Lawler wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:10 am
Julian Ward wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 am
...I would add that I absolutely would not use any music that has TAB underneath it...as a student as you are, that wants to take the guitar seriously...
Well said.
Agreeeed
Just an old book with some great pieces. Yes, I'm reading sheet music but I'm super slow at it lol

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guitarist_le
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by guitarist_le » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:27 pm

guitarist_le wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:52 am
Lawler wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:10 am
Julian Ward wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 am
...I would add that I absolutely would not use any music that has TAB underneath it...as a student as you are, that wants to take the guitar seriously...
Maybe this is the problem I face. The majority of books DO have the TAB underneath. I might just put these books away for a while. I feel like I memorize things quicker with sheet music anyway! :contrat:

Crofty
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Crofty » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:44 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:36 pm
RobMacKillop wrote:Baroque lute tablatures are full of slurs, so why some have said to do so is unBach or unBaroque is debatable at best.
An important point Rob - Weiss (for instance) employed "slurs of convenience" all the time - to the extent that I believe that he must have expected a very finely controlled fretting hand articulation as a matter of course in order to weight phrasing musically between both hands (as keyboardists do all the time).

How much this may have been more readily achievable than on our modern instruments with plastic strings is still open for debate and experimentation. Giuliani took a similar approach by the way.
Mark.

It was me who suggested that the slurs in the excerpt were neither in Baroque or Bach's style - and that was a rather "broad-brush" comment to [I had hoped...] save time.

Suffice to say I think there is a world of difference between the compositions of Weiss, who played and wrote predominantly for a multi-stringed baroque lute, in a tuning very different to that of the guitar, and which invited [demanded !!] overlapping of notes continuously as well as an innate instinct for that genre, to an arrangement for modern guitar of music written by Bach for a cello.

I don't believe for a moment that the editor in this instance thought "I will imitate a baroque lute in this arrangement" as the slurs are clearly simply expedient for the right hand fingers [although, oddly, he then doesn't specify which fingers, for clarity.] That leaves aside the fact that trying to obviate so called "difficult" string crossings between i and m is completely unnecessary [as guitarrista commented earlier.]

The 19th c guitar music that you referred to is different, of course, but still throws up the dilemma, especially on a modern guitar, of whether one should retain those idiomatic slurs which then may not sound so graceful anymore [imo] or edit them to the more conventional articulations of the mainstream orchestral instruments of the time.

I know you know all this anyway and think that in future I will give up on minimalist comments - they can use up more time than you intend or expect in order to clarify...

Paul

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: When and when NOT to alternate I and M

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:36 pm

Crofty wrote:It was me who suggested that the slurs in the excerpt were neither in Baroque or Bach's style - and that was a rather "broad-brush" comment to [I had hoped...] save time.
I missed some posts along the way Paul - but in any case I understood more than you wrote. I too erred on the side of brevity.
Crofty wrote:... compositions of Weiss ... invited [demanded !!] overlapping of notes continuously ...
Having played the baroque lute for many years (and maybe Rob will concur) I am confident in stating plainly that "campanella", as proposed by many guitarist/arrangers, has little or nothing to do with the manner of playing said instrument either in sonic effect or stylistic authenticity.
Crofty wrote:... I think there is a world of difference ... arrangement for modern guitar of music written by Bach for a cello.
Exactly so.

The whole issue is bound up in so many layers of complexity that (for a relative novice) a "clean" score is far more beneficial than some idiosyncratically fingered derivative, allowing the notes to speak for themselves without the inevitable contamination and consequent misdirection of an editor.

One positive attribute of Yates' edition is that it does include such a clean, notes-only version. My advice (already suggested) to the O.P. is to use this and to work on the mechanisms of execution elsewhere to the extent that consideration of such matters as i/m (or any other combination) and string crossing (what a complete red herring in any case) become irrelevant.

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