Barre chord trill trouble

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Tim22
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Barre chord trill trouble

Post by Tim22 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:04 pm

Hello,
I'm trying to learn 'Passacaille' by Robert de Visee. I'm no expert on CG repertoire, but I think it's quite a well known piece. Anyway, there is this repeating phrase throughout the piece which ends with a b on the 5th string, an f# on the 4th and a d# on the 2nd. The d# also has a trill on it. I play it with my first finger barre-ing across the 2nd fret, partly as, on one of the occassions of this chord I am required to play an a on the 3rd string whilst still holding the b. I am encountering 2 problems. With my 1, 2 and 3 fingers occupied I am obliged to trill using my 4th. More often tham not, this trill sounds somewhere between 'weedy' and 'totally inaudible'. I suppose maybe I just need to develop the muscles of this finger more, but I wondered if this problem also suggests a deficiency in technique. My other problem is that, as I attempt the trill, one of the other strings buzzes a little. I think, though I am not sure, that maybe in the course of the trill I am inadvertantly releasing some of the pressure on one of the other strings. I have tried squeezing harder to counter this, but a) that is quite uncomfortable and b) It doesn't always seem to help much. I can play the chord fine without the trill, but I really want to play it properly, as it were. I would be grateful if anyone could give me any helpful suggestions or tips.
Best wishes,
Tim,
Tim, in the UK, playing an Almansa 434.

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pogmoor
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Re: Barre chord trill trouble

Post by pogmoor » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:22 pm

I agree that squeezing harder is likely to be counterproductive. As a way of practising you could try moving the chord shape up the fingerboard where the frets are closer together and it's easier to execute the trill. As you develop familiarity with the movements needed to make the trill (and probably gain little finger strength) you can move the chord shape down the fingerboard until you can do the trill in 2nd position.
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David Norton
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Re: Barre chord trill trouble

Post by David Norton » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:53 pm

The Fred Noad edition recommends a barre on IV, with the low B on the 6th string. He also proposes playing the treble E as an open (cross-string) ornament, this being a perfectly legitimate option.
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Larry McDonald
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Re: Barre chord trill trouble

Post by Larry McDonald » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:17 pm

Hi,
If I understand you correctly, you are trilling D# down to C#. But doesn't the trill begin on the note above, an "E", during the Baroque? This could then be played as a "cross-string" trill, instead of with the 4th finger and 3rd finger. The barre would be a partial barre, keeping the "E" string open.

I hope this helps,
Lare
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Tim22
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Re: Barre cxhord trill trouble

Post by Tim22 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:54 pm

Thank you all for that advice, it is most helpful and appreciated. Yes, I am trilling from d# to e. I had wondered about playing it across the two strings, but I thought that might be cheating. I'm going to give that a go. Actually I'm going to give all those suggestions a go, it's really good to have different perspectives that I hadn't thought of. I particularly like the idea of practising bits with tricky stretches higher up the neck, initially. Once again, thank you all.
Tim, in the UK, playing an Almansa 434.

ronjazz
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Re: Barre chord trill trouble

Post by ronjazz » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:54 pm

Cheating? No such animal: make music, not rules. Weiss won't complain!
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guitarrista
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Re: Barre chord trill trouble

Post by guitarrista » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:08 am

Tim22 wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:04 pm
I am encountering 2 problems. With my 1, 2 and 3 fingers occupied I am obliged to trill using my 4th. More often tham not, this trill sounds somewhere between 'weedy' and 'totally inaudible'. I suppose maybe I just need to develop the muscles of this finger more, but I wondered if this problem also suggests a deficiency in technique.

My other problem is that, as I attempt the trill, one of the other strings buzzes a little. I think, though I am not sure, that maybe in the course of the trill I am inadvertantly releasing some of the pressure on one of the other strings. I have tried squeezing harder to counter this, but a) that is quite uncomfortable and b) It doesn't always seem to help much.
From my experience, this suggests that (1) your 4th finger is still a bit weak, and (2) your left-hand finger independence can use some work.

I have had the same issues in the past. I my case, the slight buzzing was definitely the result of not sufficient finger independence, meaning that I was subtly relaxing the barre finger while another finger was doing something. The solution is not to press harder - because you were already pressing hard enough since the barred finger sound, from before you involved the other finger, was clean. Instead, try to figure out - by video recording if needed - where exactly it happens and what are you doing at that exact moment. Then you just go slowly to retrain and focus on just that little snippet where the problem is. At first I'd do only ascending (or descending - depending what you first note is) slur, paying great attention to my barre finger pressing just as before while I do that. Try the descending (ascending) slur too, in isolation.

Separately, the 4th finger trilling from the 3rd: 3-4-3.. (or 4-3-4..) - is difficult at first because of both the weakness of the 4th finger compared to the others, and because 3rd and 4th are a bit more interconnected and influencing each other due to the tendon interconnections. So in the case of the 3-4-3 or 4-3-4 trill it is a combination of issues (1) and (2). It also does not help that that finger slur combination is probably the least practiced one usually.

Please listen to the teachers who have replied to you already with workarounds for that particular piece. My reply is to be viewed as an optional route to work on in parallel (not instead of what others have suggested), so that in the longer term you develop your technique - which is possible to do based on my own experience. (What you describe, if I understood correctly, is quite easy to do for me now, but some time ago in a similar 3-4-3/ 4-3-4 trill situation I could barely move my 4th finger; it took a few months to develop).
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Tim22
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Re: Barre chord trill trouble

Post by Tim22 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:02 pm

Thank you for those addional suggestions. Again, very useful. Also encouraging to know that others have experienced similar issues and have overcome them. Although I've been playing guitar on amd off for over 30 years, the last about 15 years have been very much more off than on, and it's only since returning to the classical guitar in the last 5 or 6 months that I've really started to consider technique and challenge myself. I realise that, up to recently I've been too content to just hit the right notes, rather than really thinking anout tone and playing cleanly.
Tim, in the UK, playing an Almansa 434.

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