Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

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tejjy
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Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by tejjy » Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:24 am

Capture.JPG
What's the reasoning behind the fingering 2/3 for the f#/g hammer on here, when at the start of the next bar I need 1 on the f# as a barre?

It seems easier to me to play the 1st f# with 1...

Cheers, thanks
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lucho
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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by lucho » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:19 am

I am currently learning this with my teacher, so I'l offer a reply.

My version of E #1 doesn't have fingerings (except for the chromatic section beginning at twelfth measure), so I just went with what worked for me. I use 1-2 for all legatos in this section. My teacher didn't object, which he will often do if I invent a bad fingering, so I think 1-2 is fine there.

My favorite interpretation on youtube is the recent Guitar Salon video with Tomasz Fecher and he uses 1-2 for all the slurs. As does Xingye Li on the Siccas Guitars video. As does Ana Vidovic on the video of her playing E#1 (although she plays the notes in different positions). Three talented players, none use 2-3 for that final F#/G.
Last edited by lucho on Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Terpfan
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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Terpfan » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:59 am

It's a bad fingering. Don't trust the fingering on the score. I agree with lucho here. I used 12 for the slurs here, but you can do whatever that is comfortable here. Also check other concert guitarists.

tejjy
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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by tejjy » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:38 am

I don't mind the 3/4's, but it's nice to know I can occasionally trust my judgement. The 2/3 is HISTORY. Thanks, lucho, for the video tips.

barcod
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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by barcod » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:46 pm

lucho wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:19 am
As does Ana Vidovic on the video of her playing E#1 (although she plays the notes in positions).
What do you mean by "notes in positions"? I've been unsuccessfully trying to get this right, even at medium speeds not doing a very good job. Do you guys use barres or just 1-2 slurs?

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Isabelle Frizac
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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Isabelle Frizac » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:02 pm

I use 1-2 ...it's easier :wink:
keep hope !
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Julian Ward
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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Julian Ward » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:04 pm

Check out the way Sanel Redžić plays that section on Youtube. It is pretty awesome, and I don't think anybody else will have thought to do it that way... Thinking outside the box for sure!
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lucho
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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by lucho » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:16 pm

barcod wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:46 pm
lucho wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:19 am
As does Ana Vidovic on the video of her playing E#1 (although she plays the notes in positions).
What do you mean by "notes in positions"? I've been unsuccessfully trying to get this right, even at medium speeds not doing a very good job. Do you guys use barres or just 1-2 slurs?
Forgive me, it was a typo. I meant "different positions". Most versions I've seen are like the notation above, at least in terms of strings. In contrast, Vidovic stays on the first and second string longer, moving down the fretboard before moving down through the strings.

To answer your second question: I just use 1-2 slurs, no barre.

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Re: Etue#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by robert e » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:23 am

lucho wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:16 pm
Vidovic stays on the first and second string longer, moving down the fretboard before moving down through the strings.
I suspect she does it this way to avoid bass string squeaks.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:57 am

What's wrong with doing it this way?
vl_ex.png
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Re: Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Ricflair » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:52 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:57 am
What's wrong with doing it this way?
vl_ex.png
There's a variety of ways to play this passage successfully, but one of the easiest is to play it with open strings and G B E on the 12th fret. This eliminates the awkward shift in the previous example. It also allows you to play the big slur run completely with your first and second fingers. This is much easier and usually faster for most people. Hope this helps!

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:10 am

Thanks for your reply Ricflair - I left the question wide open expecting to provoke varied responses. I'm surprised to see only one. Even so, brief as your comment may be, it raises a number of questions:
Ricflair wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote: What's wrong with doing it this way?
vl_ex.png
There's a variety of ways to play this passage successfully ...
Well, I would rephrase that to something like, there are a number of ways to play the notes of this passage in the correct sequence. Then we might ask what parameters have to be met in order for us to consider the result successful?
Ricflair wrote:... one of the easiest is to play it with open strings and G B E on the 12th fret.
Is ease of execution really a priority? Surely the first job is to understand exactly what this passage is for ... why does it interrupt and how does it affect the predominant mouvement perpétuel? How does the phrasing work? Which notes are the most important? How is the outlined harmony impacted by our choice of fingering?
Ricflair wrote:This eliminates the awkward shift in the previous example.
I see no awkward shift. Can you be specific?
Ricflair wrote:... It also allows you to play the big slur run completely with your first and second fingers.
Why is that desirable? Surely we should be training the other fingers?
Ricflair wrote:... much easier ...
Ok - ease of execution again; I respond with the same question.
Ricflair wrote:... and usually faster for most people.
How fast does it need to be? There is no musical justification for playing this work at high speed. If one takes the published edition at face value (in fact I do not) then the words non troppo have relevance. Villa-Lobos' own instruction is lively, words such as fast, quick or any other synonym do not appear.
Ricflair wrote:Hope this helps!
Thank you. The fingering example that I attached is not mine, and presented in order to contrast with other posited solutions. Let me state that, though I observe nothing wrong with it from the point of view of execution, and whilst it comes from the very highest authority on the matter, my comments above regarding musical outcome may be applied with equal pertinence.
Last edited by Mark Clifton-Gaultier on Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Wuuthrad » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:18 am

^What Mark said!

I think people play Classical guitar way too fast much of the time!

Allegro non troppo means literally:

Not too fast!
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Re: Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Ricflair » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:34 pm

Hi Mark,
Great comments. Perhaps 'awkward' shift was a poor choice of words. Even though my suggestion is a larger shift, it is less difficult and more idiomatic than HVL's own fingering in the 1928 manuscript (which is pretty much the same as the example in the thread). Judging by HVL's fingering throughout his output, utilizing open strings are well within the style. Even if he didn't use them here in his own fingering.

It is a toccata like prelude. Certainly with this consideration, the most fluid fingering would best express the character of the piece? This is a concert etude. I don't think training the 3rd and 4th fingers should be the most important consideration. This work should already be done if someone is playing this piece. Maintaining the character of the work should be the most important consideration, IMO.

Regarding the tempo, I basically agree with you, but if students or players seem to struggle maintaining their tempo, it is in this passage. Although broadening the phrase at the top of the line with a ritard isn't necessarily a bad musical decision, it is however, if a player is doing it because they can't maintain their original tempo throughout. I am still learning the formatting of this forum. Sorry, I didn't address each quote succinctly.

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Julian Ward
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Re: Etude#1, Villa-Lobos, Bar 24

Post by Julian Ward » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:45 pm

There is an awful lot of over-thinking going on about this piece. I don't imagine for one second that this piece was conceived using any notation at all. I expect VL just sat down and wrote down the chords he wanted. They are all simple barre chords and in fact that is the easiest by far method to both teach it and learn it AND understand it. The slurred run has no special properties that require different voicings or positions so you can play it however you like that leads to the most economical shifting for YOU. Fingers one and two are always faster. None of you picked up on my earlier post about the way Sanel Redžić plays that section...now that really is something to talk about! Recently people have started playing this piece with no repeats as per the original manuscript - I think VL lobos later decided it should be played faster, hence the repeats added for more musical balance. To me it doesn't work with 'no repeats' apart from maybe the decending diminished chord which gets rather boring!
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