I agree in so far as the étude is not devised to train the fingers in any way at all - what I was inferring is that all the fingers should be fully capable in the first place.Ricflair wrote:I don't think training the 3rd and 4th fingers should be the most important consideration.
You may be correct but there is design, full of intent even if relatively simple in concept.Julian Ward wrote:I don't imagine for one second that this piece was conceived using any notation at all.
Here I disagree - I feel that it is better to understand what's going on rather than just choose a mechanically expedient solution.Julian Ward wrote:The slurred run has no special properties that require different voicings or positions so you can play it however you like that leads to the most economical shifting for YOU.
I did watch it but held back from commenting as any less than positive remark usually leads to flaming from the less astute amongst us. All I will suggest is - listen with eyes closed - he doesn't achieve anything musically through the thumb over manoevre so what's the point?Julian Ward wrote:None of you picked up on my earlier post about the way Sanel Redžić plays that section ...
I'm not aware of any evidence for VL having made those changes - do you know of some Julian? It's possible of course but, given that VL's manuscripts (not just for guitar) are usually impeccably transparent and informative and that the Eschig imprints appear to have been cobbled together by at least two musical incompetents, I'm inclined to lean towards the former's very clear instructions.Julian Ward wrote: I think VL lobos later decided it should be played faster, hence the repeats added for more musical balance.
To be fair, the whole thing is often delivered in an aimless, boring manner - no dynamic imagination, no attention to harmonic development, any number of pauses between position changes, every note of each arpeggio given the same delivery, lack of nuanced timbre except in the most crude and obvious manner (e.g. if a chord includes a minor 2nd) and absolutely not the slightest hint of impressionistic style.Julian Ward wrote:To me it doesn't work with 'no repeats' apart from maybe the decending diminished chord which gets rather boring!
On the contrary - it appears that the great majority give it no thought whatsoever except in the fingering of this slur passage. A shame as it doesn't take a genius to bring the work to life.Julian Ward wrote:There is an awful lot of over-thinking going on about this piece.
Many years ago it was possible to donate recordings of his works to the VL Museum in exchange for copies certain manucripts. I've had them for decades now and know his fingerings extremely well. The 1928 copy of the Études is freely available these days by the way - should you be interested.Julian Ward wrote:Hi Mark there was a major change yes... The original 1928 manuscript (that I have not personally seen) has no repeat markings.
I don't suppose that you can pinpoint the source of that for me?Julian Ward wrote:... according to what I read, he described himself (in reference to the later publications) that the first arpeggio should be forte and the repeat should be piano, like an echo.
Me too - but I've had a few diploma candidates working on it (and some of the others) recently so I happen to have been listening to it quite a bit ... in fact all the études are so firmly embedded after all these years that I can't imagine ever forgetting them, though I doubt I'll ever have reason to play them again.Julian Ward wrote:It is twenty years since I played it.
Well worth it after 20 years I would expect. New perspectives and all that - I'd listen to some of the piano works first though; if you don't know them already you'll be amazed at how distinctive a voice he has and how convincingly he maintains it on an instrument with such poor resources as the guitar.Julian Ward wrote:I might dust it off again!
It is available on IMSLP for free download. They are a little hard to read, but you can make them out.
Thank you Robert.
How polite you are Robert - "butting in" is the life's blood of a forum - more power to your butt ... and thank you.robert e wrote:... the forte/piano iterations of each arpeggio, those were V-L's instructions to Abel Carlevaro, as related in Carlevaro's "Matsterclass" book on the etudes. Per the English translation, an "echo effect".
Aagh! Capricho Arabe - a prime example and victim of musical Chinese whispers/dodgy editions. I expect that we encountered some of the same pitfalls - I spent such a great deal of time building up scale speed for that chromatic transition - what an idiot.Julian Ward wrote:Like you, my teachings have brought me around to the old classics just recently ... I posted a new video recording of Capricho Arabe on this forum a few days ago that I last recorded 21 years ago ... when I had just finished my student days ...
I blame the Chinese...Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:32 am
Aagh! Capricho Arabe - a prime example and victim of musical Chinese whispers/dodgy editions. I expect that we encountered some of the same pitfalls - I spent such a great deal of time building up scale speed for that chromatic transition - what an idiot.
What's unfortunate is that the very same errors are being made time and time again to this day - I blame Edison.
Thanks for the gracious welcome! But now you've encouraged me to continue butting inHow polite you are Robert - "butting in" is the life's blood of a forum - more power to your butt ... and thank you.
Carlevaro's "escuela" was one of the first pedagogic works that I owned, both original and in translation - probably still have them somewhere. The foundation of my technique lay in the School of Guitar, the "cuaderno" volumes (which I wore out), John Taylor's Tone Production on the Classical Guitar and Charles Duncan's The Art of Classical Guitar Playing. I wouldn't necessarily stand by everything in either of the methods today, we've moved on since then, but I'm not a Carlevaro basher.robert e wrote:He refers to his own numbered system of stroke types here, so one must be familiar with his method. Musician's tend not to be great writers, and in translation, one with his own unique pedagogic system and terms, well...
Me too! I hope no one got the idea that I had anything but respect and gratitude for Carlevaro's pedagogy. His language, however, is as difficult as any music pedagogue's. Par for the course.it was Carlevaro's book that really opened a door for me - questioning the received wisdom ... re-examining technique and reults.
Well thanks a lot Robert - your contribution set me not only to playing through all the studies again ... I'm now tossing back and forth between various versions.robert e wrote:Excuse the butting in ...