Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

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VCG
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Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by VCG » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:54 pm

Hello,
I'm learning the Carcassi etude 1 op60.
At the first part there are a lot of notes on the low strings (4th 5th 6th)
the score says play it with i and m fingers.
For me the p finger sounds much better.
for example bar 11:
out2.PNG
Should I insist on playing it with the i and m finger and try to make it sound
good?
or should I play it with the p finger?

Thanks :)
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Rasqeo
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:01 pm

The issue with using p is when you start playing the etude faster - you will reach a point where p can’t keep up. I would persevere with the fingering as shown.

soltirefa
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by soltirefa » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:03 pm

I play this with fingerings by Ben McCartney. He uses 'p' for all those low notes you refer to.

Google, "Carcassi op 60 no 1 Ben McCartney" and you'll see a link to SCRIBD. You can see page 1 (of 2) which has the fingerings in question.

Crofty
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Crofty » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:33 pm

Alternating p with i was common lute practice which continued with early guitar and is still common today.

A slight problem with using i and m [not insurmountable] is that it requires quite an extreme change in the position of the right hand via the arm. Using p/i reduces that quite a bit.

It also feels [to me] very fluid if one is simply moving from m/i alternation to p/i alternation and then back.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:47 pm

Carcassi intended that passage (and other similar ones) to be played using only p.

Get hold of Carcassi's method (free online) and follow the instructions in there. Pretty soon you'll develop a feel for how to approach all of the studies.

N.B. Use an original, not some later translation - even some very new editions claiming to be historically informed stray from Carcassi's path. Same goes for Op.60 - the one you're using has clearly been altered.

JohnWalker
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by JohnWalker » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:09 am

Looking at the original edition ... there is no fingering present al al ?
Regards
John

JohnWalker
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by JohnWalker » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:10 am

Looking at the original edition ... there is no fingering present al al ?
Regards
John

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Julian Ward
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Julian Ward » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:18 am

Really you should have plenty of speed available with thumb only. I would teach that with thumb for sure. Edit...I mean the sixth and possibly fifth string.. I would,I am sure, teach fingers i and m on the fourth.
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Rasqeo
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Rasqeo » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:20 am

On second thoughts then it is an etude after all so why not try both? Using p will develop your thumb especially when you speed it up. Using i,m will develop your alternation on the bass strings which is an important technique to learn.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:39 pm

JohnWalker wrote:Looking at the original edition ... there is no fingering present al al ?
The modern habit of plastering scores with numbers was not deemed necessary back then, the assumption presumably being that the reader would have followed one of the several methods of the day. That is still no bad idea - reading the notes, not the numbers (or letters) is a worthwhile goal for any guitarist, amateur or professional.

Method books do include fingerings of course, the idea being (put simply) to instil the reader with useful habitual responses and a certain amount of pattern recognition to which semi-automatic mechanisms will often be applicable.

Due time spent on those exercises will make most of those little numbers and letters completely irrelevant - in fact they become nothing more than a distraction - I prefer it when none of my working scores has any fingering whatsoever.

Practising technical variations (such as i & m on the bass strings as has been suggested) is obviously worthwhile, but for reasons other than that of interpreting the score - the point of the O.P.'s query.

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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by robert e » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:15 pm

I learn so much on this forum. This one's been a revelation. Thank you all!

VCG, your edition's fingering looks like my copy, which was revised by Miguel Llobet, and which until now I've treated as gospel. In fact every modern fingering I've seen agrees with the passage you exerpted, but all the early editions I could find have no RH fingering indicated, and Mark and Crofty it appears are right on about period technique.

The introduction by Brian Jeffrey for his Tecla edition of the studies (Tecla rocks, generally) is available online and treats this issue wonderfully. Here's part of his conclusion and rationale:

"My own personal approach to playing this music is to use the text of the composer and to use the technique of the period. It’s very easy because the technique and the music are then in harmony with each other (lime mortar…). ... I personally find that using imim a great deal on the upper strings rather than the a finger, and using the right hand thumb a lot even up to the top two strings, especially in scale passages in alternation with the index finger (pipi), somehow suits the music."

Thanks to you folks and Mr. Jeffrey I'm looking forward to revisiting these etudes, and finally tackling the whole set.

(And Tecla is now offering ebooks? Time flies...)

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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by soltirefa » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:24 pm

Another difference in fingerings I have seen between versions of this etude is whether to use the open E - 1st string - to shift from the 1st position to the 5th position, playing the E open and then F on the 2nd string vs playing the F on the 1st string. I prefer using the open E as an opportunity to shift and play the F on the 2nd string.

I wonder how Carcassi handled this.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:07 am

soltirefa wrote:... whether to use the open E - 1st string - to shift from the 1st position to the 5th position ... I wonder how Carcassi handled this.
There is no single answer to this. Carcassi certainly employed the strategy in some of his pieces but:

The Méthode makes no use of such open-string manoevres in any of its scale examples, they are primarily intended as "location dictionaries" for finding notes in freshly introduced keys.

The earliest published versions of the étude in question unanimously indicate a move along string one ... implicit in the fingering is the intention to train this facility.

Should we be bound by Carcassi's fingering?

Well, in teaching these études I encourage the same approach as that taken by Brian Jeffrey i.e. to follow (as far as we can ascertain) the technique of the period and the text of the composer. There is a subtle integrity, a link between technique and compositional style which plays a (sometimes small) part in communicating the form, character and expression of each work. I want to get inside the composer's head.

Back to the point: we know that Carcassi employed "open-string shifting" at times ... also that he chose not to in the presentation of étude 1.
soltirefa wrote:I prefer using the open E as an opportunity to shift and play the F on the 2nd string.
There is a clear opportunity here to practise making the shift along string one as smooth as possible. In concert though, I imagine that our Matty might have indulged himself a bit and used your method.

You can decide:

a) Which method is useful to technical development.
b) Which method delivers the desired musical result in performance.

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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:27 am

VCG wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:54 pm
Should I insist on playing it with the i and m finger and try to make it sound good? or should I play it with the p finger?
Use whatever fingering allows you to make the music sound the way you want it to sound. Simple.

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Re: Carcassi etude 1 op60 part one right hand

Post by soltirefa » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:19 am

I stumbled onto this lesson video for this etude. I'm making this video start where he talks about damping the bass as you play the 3rd 8th note (damp C bass as you play B melody, in the first instance).

I realized I don't do this, so I tried it. I find it kind of a hassle and prefer not to have to think about that. Besides, the bass C ringing will disappear by merely lifting up (stop fretting). Simple. Later, when there's an open A bass, it is a time to question whether to damp as described above. I still think stifles my playing to deal with that.

What say you?


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