LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

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detwidkul
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LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by detwidkul » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:32 am

Hi

I have problem with LH shape
- 3rd finger play 6th string G note ( need to hold )
- 2nd finger play 1st string f#
- 4th figer ( pinky ) play the G on the 1st string

it is for me difficult to hold the bass note through out, and it seems that the 3rd finger has to curve more to have the pressure while the 2nd and 4th finger playing the melody but it seem impossible for me especially when play slowly.
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:09 am

You may develop the facility little by little through this method:

Place 3rd finger on D, string two and leave it in place.
Place fingers 2 and 4 successively on string one - F# then G ... and back to F#.

Repeat the procedure except with the 3rd finger placed on Bb, string three; then again with 3 on F, string four and so on. As the hand shifts to accomodate the lower strings allow the thumb to move accordingly. You might not reach string six during the first few attempts - don't force it, and don't worry. Maintain a relaxed hand at all times and persevere over a number of days.

Also - and this is important - become aware of how your arm is able to carry the fingers to their targets. Simply hold 3 on the bottom G and experiment moving the arm (from the shoulder and/or elbow), noting how the hand is carried towards and away from parts of the fingerboard. Normal "longitudinal presentation" is not necessarily the best choice in these circumstances.

Lastly, remember that you are not alone in finding difficulty in this manoevre. It takes a little time to develop independence and control. Fernando Sor, on his more narrow-necked instrument, even suggested that the 2nd finger should be used to hold bottom G when the 4th is employed on string one. Carulli did the same and, to Sor's horror, would even use his thumb.

detwidkul
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by detwidkul » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:20 am

Thank you very much for your info. I will practice it start from the second strings and so on.

u mention about staying relax, does this mean that when I start to feel tense and some fingers collapse its shape as the third finger move up to lower string, I have to stop and back to the strings where I am comfortable with.

Damn it, I have been pushing it hard to reach coz I thought it will help my whatever the muscle is used will develop and strech easily one day.
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celestemcc
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by celestemcc » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:32 pm

You may develop the facility little by little through this method
Excellent advice, seconding it. You will develop dexterity, flexibilty, and strength with Mark's method. Take it slowly, that's the most important thing. Right now it's form over speed, and pay close attention the thumb position, as he recommends.

It may take several very focused practice sessions (not too long each time, give yourself a rest!) and it will get easier.
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detwidkul
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by detwidkul » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:48 am

thank you guys, as now I am suffering with massive sored hands and finger and seem I have to take a day off.

I have come across the tip about increasing finger width, for example

using the first finger and second finger over the neck width, for stretching and the fingers can go deeper and deeper into the neck by itself. but no need to push too hard.

this is weird but it seems make some sense.
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Alexander Kalil
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:04 am

detwidkul wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:32 am
I have problem with LH shape
- 3rd finger play 6th string G note ( need to hold )
- 2nd finger play 1st string f#
- 4th figer ( pinky ) play the G on the 1st string
Is there any particular musical reason why you have to use those fingers to fret those notes? Or is that some sort of left hand finger permutation exercise?

Anyway, that is an awkward fingering that I think no proficient player would use in a real world musical context. Personally, I'd fret the low g with 2, the high g with 3, and the f# with the base of 1.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:17 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:Anyway, that is an awkward fingering that I think no proficient player would use in a real world musical context. Personally, I'd fret the low g with 2, the high g with 3, and the f# with the base of 1.
Nothing wrong per se with doing it that way Alexander - a downside though is that the opportunity to develop further independence has been missed, so that when a similar passage comes along, perhaps utilising finger 1 elsewhere (they're not uncommon), we're beginning from square one again, e.g.
chilesotti.png
Such a fingering (holding bottom G or bottom C) really isn't so awkward once practised correctly.
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celestemcc
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by celestemcc » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:25 pm

I suspect you're pushing it too hard. Yes, you must practice it. But don't overdo it, either. Practice the exercise for 15 minutes then stop. Shake out your hand. Practice something else, something a bit less taxing. Come back to it again later, again, no more than 10-15 minutes. Don't do this too many times a day.

Here's something you can add to the exercise: do it exactly as Mark suggests, but start on a higher fret, eg, fret 10 or 9. It will sound weird, that's OK. (Please, as he says, still watch thumb position etc. Very important.) Get comfortable with the exercise, then move down a fret. Repeat all the way down the neck. You'll find it easier on the higher frets than the lower ones. But it's not cheating, it's getting your fingers used to the movements without stretching too much. When you finally start practicing entirely in first position, you'll find it easier. And still don't overdo it.

Don't expect overnight results: think of this as gym training for your right hand. As you become more experienced this type of exercise will get easier, but you also can't force it. It will get better, day by day, and one day you'll wonder that you ever thought this was difficult.
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detwidkul
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by detwidkul » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:08 am

thank you very much again, now I have start with mark suggestion, and yesss, the only problem is only the bottom G on the 6th string, the 5th string C is now getting comfortable to do.
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Terpfan
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Terpfan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:10 pm

Don't over do it. No pain no gain does not apply to guitar playing.

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Alexander Kalil
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Alexander Kalil » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:23 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:17 pm
.. a downside though is that the opportunity to develop further independence has been missed, so that when a similar passage comes along, perhaps utilising finger 1 elsewhere (they're not uncommon), we're beginning from square one again, e.g. chilesotti.png
Thanks for the pointer to the Chilesotti. I think this is a different situation with the given fingering quite handy - even though I might still use the base of 1 to fret the f# on a large instrument.

Really I'd love to see a real musical example where the extent of finger-spreading in the original post is necessary. Personally I'm not a fan of regularly practicing finger exercises without a specific musical context and have always questioned their developmental value, though I'm aware of being in a minority.

Luis_Br
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Luis_Br » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:38 pm

Independence is the key. Maybe pay more attention on relaxation rather than pressing.
To detach third finger you may tense it in towards up, besides pressing string, and you may tense opposite muscles, generating tensions that fight each other. Pay attention and avoid this by all means.
We tend to move fingers 2-4 together, their tendons are even attached, so it is not a natural movement. Go slowly, and work on moving the right muscles. Also pay attention to overall hand/arm positioning. Mark already gave great tips.
Alexander Kalil wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:23 pm
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:17 pm
.. a downside though is that the opportunity to develop further independence has been missed, so that when a similar passage comes along, perhaps utilising finger 1 elsewhere (they're not uncommon), we're beginning from square one again, e.g. chilesotti.png
Thanks for the pointer to the Chilesotti. I think this is a different situation with the given fingering quite handy - even though I might still use the base of 1 to fret the f# on a large instrument.

Really I'd love to see a real musical example where the extent of finger-spreading in the original post is necessary. Personally I'm not a fan of regularly practicing finger exercises without a specific musical context and have always questioned their developmental value, though I'm aware of being in a minority.
There are dozens of examples. I've been practicing BWV998 this days and, for example, near the end of the first part of the allegro, you need G# with finger 3 on 6th string (tuned to D) and finger 2 and 4 on A and B 1st string. Koonce also suggests this fingering (but some players play this G# one octave up in 4th string, avoiding the vertical stretch). I also remember this kind of fingering in some passages of BWV1009 (I play it in the key of G with 6 and 5th stirngs tuned to D and G). Those are speedy parts where you don't have time to change fingering or where you should use the fingering to keep voicing articulation. This stretch is not that difficult, just require some practice because it is not a natural move.

I recomend start practicing Carcassi Op59 exercises at the end of first part, to develop independence for finger 3 and 4 first. You find Op59 for free in Boije:
http://carkiv.musikverk.se/www/boije/Boije_1129.pdf
exercises on page 38 of this Boije pdf.
You see this is so useful that Carcassi dedicates exercises to it.
Carlevaro and Pujol also have other good independence exercises I would recomend, but you can build over Carcassi's idea adding other notes, playing cromatically or in other scales and fretboard positions, as well as using other notes as pedal point.

I think another important point is that we should practice to develop over the difficult parts. Don't waste time repeating what you already know.
I also would avoid overdoing. To develop technique, do not repeat. We repeat to memorize, after we know how to do it. To learn you first try different approaches and discover what you must change to do it right, to make it easier. I would recommend short 2-3 min of practice only, but you can spread it along the day and do other stuff in between.

detwidkul
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by detwidkul » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:00 am

I find another problem with the 2nd and third finger

when I fix 3 and 4th finger on the 3rd string - and move alternatively 1 and 2nd finger on the 6th and 1 st string,
I NOTICE that the 2nd finger joint straight up ( the joint before the finger tip ), but it start to curve more when I move the 1st finger to the 5th string and so on ( less stretch between both fingers )

this also happen with 2nd and 3rd finger movement.

However with the move of 1st and 3rd finger together, the finger curve nicely ( may be because the fingers tendon or whatever does not connect

I FEEL some sharp pain around the joint when the finger has to stay vertical press when practice.

What should I do?
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Alexander Kalil
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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:18 am

Luis_Br wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:38 pm
BWV998 .. near the end of the first part of the allegro, you need G# with finger 3 on 6th string (tuned to D) and finger 2 and 4 on A and B 1st string
Thanks for taking the time to answer my query. Still, in your example, just as in the O.P.'s example, we do not "need" to use that overzealous fingering and strain our left hand unnecessarily. Here once again I'd make use of the base of the 1st finger to avoid that extreme stretch and play the music comfortably and fluently at any tempo you wish.

I recomend start practicing Carcassi Op59 exercises at the end of first part .. Carlevaro and Pujol also have other good independence exercises I would recomend
Thanks for your recommendation. As already mentioned, I am not interested in finger permutation exercises, but those sure might be interesting to someone else.

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Re: LH difficulty on the use of 2-4th finger

Post by Luis_Br » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:39 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:18 am
I recomend start practicing Carcassi Op59 exercises at the end of first part .. Carlevaro and Pujol also have other good independence exercises I would recomend
Thanks for your recommendation. As already mentioned, I am not interested in finger permutation exercises, but those sure might be interesting to someone else.
Yes, maybe they are only for those who want prepare themselves for playing intricate bach fugues and advanced repertoire.

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