Harmonics Query

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RobMacKillop
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Harmonics Query

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:26 am

This had me scratching my head this morning, how to play the c and e harmonics together. It's from a Pujol study, F Major key signature. I'm thinking it's a notational mistake, but I might be missing something clever..
IMG_20190330_082013-460x816.jpg
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:42 pm

That looks like the end of the Copla de Seguidilla from La seguidilla en el cortijo Rob.

My copy gives the harmonic pitches as E and C (natural) a sixth apart but with no indication of how to execute them.

Edit: Forget what I said about C# - just looked at the version in Escuela Razionale.

RobMacKillop
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:49 pm

That's the piece, Mark. Well spotted. It's a very nice piece, one I might work up.

I'm using the German-language edition.

Your c# is definitely worth consideration. Yours must be the Italian/Spanish edition?

RobMacKillop
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:53 pm

A thought came to mind that the notes might be the same E, one at the second fret, string 4, the other the 5th string, seventh fret.. It would be possible to play them together, one a natural harmonic, one false. The two E's going to two A's?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:07 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:A thought came to mind that the notes might be the same E, one at the second fret, string 4, the other the 5th string, seventh fret.. It would be possible to play them together, one a natural harmonic, one false. The two E's going to two A's?
Could be - my version came from a fellow pursuing a doctorate some years ago - I understood at the time that he had access to manuscripts which would mean that the C natural has some credibility - a puzzle though - how to do it.

Maybe checking through Pujol's harmonics instructions in the method will throw some light. I will investigate further.

By the way - the Segudilla itself is great fun to play if you haven't already tried it - goes at quite a lick but falls well under the fingers (unlike some of Mr. Pujol's creations).

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:24 pm

Found a copy online at cglib.org - title Estudio 52 LII Copla de Seguidilla - it shows the harmonics at pitch - however, no indication of execution method or provenance.

Look under Complete Works menu.

RobMacKillop
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:35 pm

Hmm, that doesn't help at all. I've never seen that site before. Is it legal?

guit-box
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by guit-box » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:05 pm

How about as artificial harmonics? Index finger wedges between the strings at an angle and ma or ac pluck. I suspect an error in the notation, though. Is there a recording to examine?
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:18 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:Is it legal?
Possibly (or probably) not - so not a place to download from - I haven't come across it before either - just searched using Google and that one popped up in images showing the harmonic C and E at the end.

I had a look at Pujol's instructions but no clarification there as far as I can see. It's a case of using one's musical judgement to create a stylistically appropriate solution ...

RobMacKillop
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:45 pm

That's the conclusion a came to, Mark. In such circumstances, I always blame the composer - if they are not clear enough, they can't blame me for doing what I feel is right.

guit-box - I've never heard a recording, but anyone who records it will have to ask the same questions. Unless, of course, they have access to a hand-written manuscript from the composer. Even then, composers are not always precise.

I think it needs a quotation from Smoke On The Water right at that point. Who's with me?!

Luis_Br
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by Luis_Br » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:13 pm

It is strange his notation of the C on fourth string fret XIV, generally they should indicate the harmonic location.

My first thought following the notes written is doing E natural harmonic on fifth string fret VII as indicated and C artificial harmonic by holding C on first string VIII fret (RH plays AH 12 frets up with index and some other finger while thumb plays natural harmonic). For lower C octave could do similar AH on 3rd string.

I don't have the guitar here with me now, but maybe if you press C on fourth string 10th fret you get C as AH (two octaves higher) around fret 14th? (well, maybe closer to fret XIII)

I think playing C natural would be important to reinforce the phrygian mode. I haven't seen the score, but phrygian is a typical Andaluzian cadence and the seguidilla has Andaluzian origin. I see double bar, is this closing the piece?

RobMacKillop
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Re: Harmonics Query

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:45 pm

Yes, it's the end of the piece. It's in Book IV for his Method.

I'm still going for Smoke On The Water, but apparently there are no seconders...I don't know why...

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